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View Full Version : Group sheltering can be safer in "tough times"



Mountain Man
02-18-2008, 05:19 PM
Part 2 "The man from Argentina". posted by Mountain man

"My brother visited us here in Argentina a few weeks ago. He?s been living in Spain for a few years now. Within the first week, he got sick, some kind of strong flu, even though climate isn?t that cold ,and he took care of himself. Without a doubt he got sick because there are lots of new viruses in my country that can?t be found in 1st world countries. The misery and famine lead us to a situation where, even though you have food, shelter and health care, most of others don?t, and therefore they get sick and spread the diseases all over the region.

What got me started on this post is the fact that I actually saw this coming, and posted on the subject, months before the new viruses spread over the country and the news started talking about this new, health emergency, which proves that talking, thinking and sharing ideas with like minded people (you guys), does help to see things coming and prepare for them with enough time. So I started thinking about several issues, what I learned (either the hard way or thanks to this forum) after all these years of living in a collapsed country that is trying to get out an economical disaster and everything that comes along with it. Though my English is limited, I hope I?m able to transmit the main ideas and concepts, giving you a better image of what you may have to deal with some day, if the economy collapses in your country. Here is what I have so far:

URBAN OR COUNTRY?

Someone once asked me how did those that live in the country fare. If they were better off than city dwellers. As always there are no simple answers. Wish I could say country good, city bad, but I can?t, because if I have to be completely honest, and I intend to be so, there are some issues that have to be analyzed, especially security. Of course those that live in the country and have some land and animals were better prepared food-wise. No need to have several acres full of crops. A few fruit trees, some animals, such as chickens, cows and rabbits, and a small orchard was enough to be light years ahead of those in the cities. Chickens, eggs and rabbits would provide the proteins, a cow or two for milk and cheese, some vegetables and fruit plants covered the vegetable diet, and some eggs or a rabbit could be traded for flour to make bread and pasta or sugar and salt.

Of course that there are exceptions, for example, some provinces up north have desert climate, and it almost never rains. It is almost impossible to live off the land, and animals require food and water you have to buy. Those guys had it bad; no wonder the northern provinces suffer the most in my country. Those that live in cities, well they have to manage as they can. Since food prices went up about 200%-300%. People would cut expenses wherever they could so they could buy food. Some ate whatever they could; they hunted birds or ate street dogs and cats, others starved. When it comes to food, cities suck in a crisis. It is usually the lack of food or the impossibility to acquire it that starts the rioting and looting when the economic depression happens..

When it comes to security ,things get even more complicated. Forget about shooting those that mean you harm from 300 yards away with your MBR. Leave that notion to armchair commandos and 12 year old kids that pretend to be grown ups on the internet.

Some facts:

1) Those that want to harm you or steal from you, don?t come with a pirate flag waving over their heads.

2) Neither do they start shooting at you 200 yards away.

3) They won?t come riding loud bikes or dressed with their orange, convict just escaped from prison jump suits, so that you can identify them the better. Nor do they all wear chains around their necks and leather jackets. If I had a dollar for each time a person that got robbed told me, ?They looked like NORMAL people, dressed better than we are?. There are exceptions, but don?t expect them to dress like in the movies.

4) A man with a wife and two or three kids can?t set up a watch. I don?t care if you are SEAL, SWAT or John Freaking Rambo, no 6th sense is going to tell you that there is a guy pointing a gun at your back when you are trying to fix the water pump that just broke, or carrying a big heavy bag of dried beans you bought that morning.

The best alarm system anyone can have in a farm is a German Shepherd dog .. After all these years I learned that even though the person that lives out in the country is safer when it comes to small time robberies, that same person is more exposed to extremely violent home robberies. Criminals know that they are isolated and their feeling of invulnerability is boosted. When they assault a country home or farm, they will usually stay there for hours or days torturing the owners. I heard it all: women and children getting raped, people tied to the beds and tortured with electricity, beatings, burned with acetylene torches. Big cities aren?t much safer for the survivalist that decides to stay in the city. He will have to face express kidnappings, robberies, and pretty much risking getting shot for what?s in his pockets or even his clothes.

So, where to go? The concrete jungle is dangerous and so is living away from it all, on your own. The solution is to stay away from the cities but in groups, either by living in a small town-community or sub division, or if you have friends or family that think as you do, form your own small community. Some may think that having neighbors within ?shouting? distance means loosing your privacy and freedom, but it?s a price that you have to pay if you want to have someone to help you if you ever need it. To those that believe that they will never need help from anyone because they will always have their rifle at hand, checking the horizon with their scope every five minutes and a first aid kit on their back packs at all times?.Grow up!!!! "

waif69
09-15-2008, 08:21 PM
To those that believe that they will never need help from anyone because they will always have their rifle at hand, checking the horizon with their scope every five minutes and a first aid kit on their back packs at all times?.Grow up!!!! "

Give them a break. Let them try it. After a week or perhaps 2 if they are really tough, they will come back. You need at least 3 other people aside from yourself to go out in the middle of nowhere and live. That being said, all members of the party need to get along and need to have an overlap in skills. Shortly after setting up camp and figuring out where food for the next week is coming from you want to plan maintenance on all equipment, that also means inventory of tools, supplies and consumables and a plan needs to be put into place for supply rotation, resupplying and down time. Not the easiest thing to do but it is key to having a successful survival time with the zombies around.

threepercent
09-15-2008, 08:32 PM
real lessons:

http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/blogs/klessons/index.html

waif69
09-16-2008, 10:16 AM
That site has quite a bit of good information on it. I especially like the Flowchart of Survival Strategy.

silverstate51
11-18-2008, 07:23 PM
Any defensive situation can be turned against the defenders. The young couple with a small baby, hiking across country to get to her mother's house in Colorado. Of course you let them spend the night. Earnest travelers you're showing Christian charity to, or the recon element of the bad guys, who now have a pretty good idea as to your group's situation.

Far fetched? Consider this, in the 1970s US Special Forces, in conjunction with the Atomic Energy Commission tested the security of nuclear power facilities. They were able to access every facility. In one instance, one of the soldiers re-broke a leg recently injured in a parachute jump. This allowed the team to stage an auto accident near the facility entrance. Plant security, seeing the bone sticking from the leg, immediately granted access to an office inside the perimeter. An ambulance was called, and within minutes, arrived at the facility. It carried an A-team, which proceeded into the facility aided by the plant's own security. Just like the movie "the Dirty Dozen," only with a real broken leg as the convincer.

A small community, one composed of individuals that get along, each having skills that compliment each other, and bringing supplies and tools to a common purpose, stands the greatest chance of survival. It is not perfect, and can be taken down.

goldilocks
11-18-2008, 10:09 PM
Interesting thread and some good food for thought !

Earthling
11-18-2008, 11:09 PM
Ya - makes me think we don't have a chance WTSHTF. :scared:

signseeker
11-19-2008, 12:39 PM
Who's we? Don't include me in that loser mentality! :l0 (49):

silverstate51
11-19-2008, 01:21 PM
Biggest problem small groups will have - chain of command. Who will be in charge, and how will tasks be assigned? Amazing how when groups are thrown together without prior planning that there are many leaders, few followers. This leads to much wasted time as egos battle. Just because you own the farm everyone is going to live on does not mean you get to be in charge. Just because you are the bishop or first councilor does not necessarily translate to holding the leadership role automatically, especially when someone who was a stake president elsewhere shows up.

If you know who will be in your group, agree beforehand who will fill what roles, and who succeeds who. If agreement cannot be reached now, there is almost no chance of it being reached after the event. You might need to find another group.

There is no need to go full-bore paranoid, and withdraw from society. Simply get your people together, find out what skills are present, what skills are needed, and start getting trained and cross-trained. Each person should have a primary, a secondary, and if possible, a tertiary skill. During the training cycle leaders will arise. Remove your ego from the equation and be a follower if someone else is a better leader.

Remember, you're looking for leaders, not dictators.

mirkwood
11-19-2008, 02:27 PM
Thus the reason we need our wards/stakes to be prepared as a whole and ready to work together under priesthood leadership lines of authority. If we can get there as a majority, we can do this.

arbilad
11-19-2008, 05:42 PM
I think that the security advantages of a group would be non-existent in any group except the friendliest. The stresses of a survival situation would be huge, and especially if someone doesn't like you there could be huge problems. Read the book Lucifer's Hammer for examples. Also, whatever position you have now will mean nothing. Again, read that same book. One guy in the book had a refuge in the mountains, and when he got there his employee wouldn't let him in.

signseeker
11-19-2008, 05:50 PM
Dang it! No Lucifer's Hammer at the library.

My first reaction is come on, arbi, yer getting kinda' out there, dude. :out:

Second reaction is - my gosh, he's absolutely right. :eek (2):

DMGNUT
11-19-2008, 06:50 PM
Great thread.

silverstate51
11-20-2008, 11:15 AM
Might I suggest you take notice of who in your ward/stake takes heed of the church's council on food storage and preparation? A simple talk with the stake preparedness specialist should help you in developing a list. This will give you a start on a possible group.
Far too many members think that the church has large stores set aside to take care of them should disaster strike. They ignore the warnings informing them otherwise. Don't be one of these!
Do what you can to have the materiel ready, and prepare yourself, spiritually of course, but also learning and refining useful skills, such as first aid/EMT/Paramedic, Carpentry, Plumbing, Electrician, Welding, Milling (grinding grain), etc....

mirkwood
11-20-2008, 01:02 PM
One of my co-workers dad is a Regional Welfare Specialist. He told his son, who passed it on to me, that the church has enough food stored to feed one family in each ward in the world one meal and then the stored food is gone.

silverstate51
11-21-2008, 01:47 AM
Perhaps this year we might consider giving loved ones food storage items as Christmas gifts. Perhaps a hand-crank wheat grinder, or oil lamps. Maybe tools with which they can learn carpentry or plumbing?
How about a course in first aid, woodworking, etc.?

Times will be getter tougher before they get better. Let us do what we can to improve.

ghostcat
11-21-2008, 02:13 AM
Perhaps this year we might consider giving loved ones food storage items as Christmas gifts. Perhaps a hand-crank wheat grinder, or oil lamps. Maybe tools with which they can learn carpentry or plumbing?
How about a course in first aid, woodworking, etc.?

Times will be getter tougher before they get better. Let us do what we can to improve.

We have been doing this for the last two or three years in our family. It has been well received and has begun to motivate some of them to begin their own preparations.

Toni
12-10-2008, 10:27 PM
These are really good ideas. Let's also not forget the very real power of the priesthood. God is very real. He is in charge. We do the best we can and let him do the rest. I say this because things can seem real scary even if we band together - or what if we can't for some reason? Works are good. Faith is also needed. Great thread.

arbilad
05-24-2016, 01:47 PM
Maybe this is one reason why it is so important to do your home/visiting teaching so that you get used to the people in your ward and you can work together more easily when the fecal matter hits the rotary oscillator.

DMGNUT
05-24-2016, 06:28 PM
Cool old thread, thanks for reviving it Arbilad.
One of the things that most likely goes without saying, but that really stood out to me from some of the earlier posts, about bad people looking like "innocents" and getting in (to your groups "place") to do nothing more than recon.
This is why Spiritual preparedness is as important (actually more important) than temporal preparedness.
The ability to "feel" or be "prompted" not to trust someone, or to only offer them a few provisions (and send them on their way), but to not let them in; will be just as important (if not more important) than any temporal prep you make.

Earthling
05-26-2016, 12:04 AM
I'm thinking of getting a camera for the front door so I can see who is there before I answer it. Much safer and I can send the latest solicitor on their way without exposing myself by opening the door to who knows who? Then I can also answer even if I'm not at home - thieves sometimes will knock pretending to sell something to see if anyone is home. Anyone have any thoughts on this or what system to get?

Harm
05-26-2016, 09:45 AM
We had our Father & Sons campout last weekend. A tradition in our ward because of how many of us just like to camp, is to go up a day or two before. This year we had the largest multi-day group we've ever had, so we had multiple days of working together. We only officially had shared meals Friday Night, Sat Morning but we shared and helped throughout impromptu and with some planning. We had a the Bishop & 1 counselor, a two former bishops and a member of several current & former members of the High Council. More High Priests than we've ever had.

In 3 days of working together it was hugely eye opening in a non-formal setting how easily we worked together in ways that allowed us to do a bit and enjoy times with our sons. But we got everything done. The area we were in has a history of Bears (one of the few places in Arizona with fatalities from bear attacks) and Mountain Lions so keeping watch was important to keep track of the kids. Also we had to keep track of everyones materials. There was one bit of an issue with communication the first morning and otherwise everyone took care of each other.

This was not planned or related to anything else, BUT I think the principles are the same. Don't set your own ignorant or bias'ed barriers on your ward & stake family guys. There's a reason they are the next step above the family unit.

Oh and with modern genes a German Shepherd dog is a DUMB idea. Get a dog you enjoy and TRAIN IT or GET IT TRAINED. Breed means a heck of a lot less than temperament.

KF7EEC
05-26-2016, 09:10 PM
I'm thinking of getting a camera for the front door so I can see who is there before I answer it. Much safer and I can send the latest solicitor on their way without exposing myself by opening the door to who knows who? Then I can also answer even if I'm not at home - thieves sometimes will knock pretending to sell something to see if anyone is home. Anyone have any thoughts on this or what system to get?

SkyBell. It's awesome.

DMGNUT
05-27-2016, 09:14 PM
Don't set your own ignorant or bias'ed barriers on your ward & stake family guys. There's a reason they are the next step above the family unit.


Harm,
Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying here...
But I'd be curious how many of those ward members you're talking about, actually have their food storage and/or any other items set aside.
If all of them do, then I'm totally wrong, and more importantly, totally impressed... but the numbers I've seen and heard would suggest otherwise.
Once again, and not to be difficult, but most people will be nice and helpful when they can go back to a safe home and continue shopping and living life as normal.
Its how people will act and what they will resort to, when all heck breaks loose (and they can't go back to Fry's for more chicken and beef links), that I worry about.
All of that aside, I will do the best I can to help any and everyone... members and non-members alike.
But as for those who don't have preps (or just want more) and set their mind on "taking" from me... well, since the Spirit already knows what I intend to do about those folks... lets just say, maybe He will warn me, and maybe He won't...

Harm
05-31-2016, 08:45 AM
I'm trying to not be flippant in my remarks.

If we have our food storage but not Priesthood Power & Authority then we are no more prepared than our neighbors. Now I'm not calling anyone out. I'm still working on me and mine. BUT Food Storage is not the be all end all of is someone prepared.

And if we have a group that can and does work (never forget the power of hard work) together under priesthood leadership then regardless of everyone having 100% food storage, we are better prepared for what comes in the future.

DMGNUT
06-01-2016, 08:48 AM
I agree completely Harm, with your comments on the priesthood, its pretty much exactly what I said in post #20 just a few posts above my last one.
What I'm suggesting is that (and I guess we're mostly talking about members of the church here, as opposed to non-members), is that there might be a few good reasons for someone not to have their food storage, but for the most part, if someone doesn't have their food storage, the only reason is disobedience...
I've heard and read time and again, that, "I'll just come to your house and you can take care of me".
The Lord may very well miraculously increase what I have, so I can take care of the 90% of the ward members who didn't care enough to follow the Brethren's counsel (to acquire provisions), but it's not my place to tell the Lord when or where miracles are to be performed.
Its also not my place to discern whether or not someone really holds the priesthood or just thinks they do... but I question whether someone (who from my perspective) hasn't done some of the very basic things they've been asked to do by the Brethren, really is a priesthood holder...
I agree also, that I have more to do in a lot of areas myself, and that food storage is a temporal prep (as opposed to Spiritual prep, meaning its less important), but to be a high priest, and have paid little or even no heed to the Brethren's counsel on this, is setting yourself and your family... (immediate family and ward family alike), up for failure.
And I guess my last point, is people who would disregard something so basic, might work well under no stress at all... but when a societal collapse happens (and I agree none of us really know how we'll react under such circumstances), but those who have disregarded the Brethren's counsel and have fooled themselves into thinking all will be fine, will most likely be nothing more than a burden to the others in their group. It doesn't mean we won't help them, just that it'll be far more difficult on everyone else...

"Too often we bask in our comfortable complacency and rationalize that the ravages of war, economic disaster, famine, and earthquake cannot happen here. Those who believe this are either not acquainted with the revelations of the Lord, or they do not believe them."
Ezra Taft Benson

"Those who smugly think calamities will not happen, that they somehow will be set aside because of the righteousness of the Saints, are deceived and will rue the day they harbored such a delusion."
Ezra Taft Benson, October Conference, 1980

arbilad
06-01-2016, 09:20 AM
I have many times thought that regardless of whether I share with someone or not, the efficacy of that help is up to their standing with the Lord. The Lord has told us that we are to prepare. I can no more give someone the spiritual blessings of having listened to the counsel to store food than I can give them the economic blessings of tithing by paying tithing for them.

Harm
06-01-2016, 09:40 AM
I would not suggest that those who expect others carry their load be helped, as is suggested in the "I'll just come to your house".

BUT those then are individuals to be treated as such, NOT the entire membership at large. That would be my concern with where this conversation seems to be founded.

Especially after the economic difficulties of the last several years, comes a heightened concern over widespread judgement.

DMGNUT
06-03-2016, 01:57 PM
I thought (after rereading the whole thread), that it was suggesting pretty much what you suggested Harm... that people try to work together (members and non-members alike).
I didn't pickup on the vibe that anyone (specifically church members) were being singled out as being less prepared and therefore going to be a heavier burden for others to carry.

Having said that, it does occur to me that since non-members haven't truly received the counsel to prepare, and since roughly 90% of the members (all of whom certainly have received that counsel), have chosen to disregard it... there's a pretty good argument for saying those church members should be singled out, for putting themselves in that category of being nothing more than a burden, for others to have to eventually carry.