vermicomposting or bokashi composting?

[prairiemom]

I was just looking in my latest Realgoods catalog and they have a "bokashi composting system." It's a little spendy, but says it will compost anything--including meat and cheese. We have a hard time composting during the winter--we're never able to get enough composting going before it gets too cold and everything freezes. We sort of need to compost year round because we have no garbage pickup so all the garbage we produce is either 1- recycled, 2-burned 3-composted or 4-hauled to the dump. And organic matter doesn't burn too well, so we prefer to compost (and besides it's so good for the garden. So my question is: have any of you tried bokashi composting and how well does it work. OR...I've been toying with the idea of composting with worms during the winter to deal with kitchen waste. Anyone try this? Any ideas which would be easier to do?

[jennvan40]

My parents used to grow worms to sell to dumps and other places for vermicomposting so I can probably tell you just about anything you want to know about it. I don't know what bokashi composting is about other that a quick search on the internet so don't know what to tell you how they compare.

[FixItGuy]

:seeya:I love your ideas for composting year round and worms. I have bought compost starter products and wasn't that impressed. Think I read that manure adds bacteria and gets it started?? Don't want manure in the kitchen. Would compost be warm enough in the garage to work during the Winter? I don't like to put large quantities of stuff in the garbage disposal due to our septic tank and our soil can use all the improving it can get.
When we did the canning this year (my whole family cans at our house) I layered the peelings with the chicken poo and wood shavings out of the coop and the dirt left over from growing 'taters in the garbage cans, in the garbage cans right outside the back door. Don't think it will work very fast because it's cold.
However, legend in my family tells that my Great-grandfather in Star Valley, Wyoming grew cabbage that was the envy of the neighborhood by starting it earlier in the Spring on the manure pile which kept it from freezing.
What about putting worms in the square foot garden? Will worms die from the heat in the compost?
It is going to be hard for me to wait all Winter to plant again.

Jenene (FixItGuy's wife)

[signseeker]

Isn't manure a heck of a lot easier than composting? I mean, not that we are the types to take the evil easy road, of course. :laugh:

[FixItGuy]

:l0 (41):I am a big fan of the evil easy road. I have managed to roast my plants to death with manure in my enthusiasm to take good care of them. Smart, huh?
In the context of this world, I have this fond dream of growing the perfect vegetable. If I can create the perfect soil maybe I have a shot at it.
We have so many rocks in our not so great soil in Highland that my gardening success in it hasn't been that good. Success with square foot gardening, however, has been pretty good and compost is an ingredient in that. Also, I have this compulsion not to waste that mountain of left-over stuff from canning and every day eating. Also, this chicken poo and wood shavings mixture is great stuff.

Jenene (FixItGuy's wife)

[jennvan40]

If you are looking for something that will grow insane great plants/gardens, you should definitely do the vermicomposting, also known as worms. They create this create stuff called worm castings that is Fabulous for your garden. They sell this stuff in stores for like $20/lb.
Its fairly easy to keep worms, they have an optimal temperature but can live and reproduce even outside of that temperature. They "eat" just about anything you give them. We put a bunch of the worm castings on our garden and our corn grew 10 feet tall. Everything we grew and have grown in the last few years has been amazingly abundant. If you have specific questions about the worms, growing them, keeping them, how they work and stuff like that, please fee free to post questions. I'll try to answer them the best I can.

[prairiemom]

Thanks! The process sounds pretty straightforward and not too complicated. I like easy! I've seen the kits--they run from $90-$150. Is it worthwhile to buy kits? Because I've also seen plans to just but plastic tubs or bins, drill holes and stake them. What have you used?

If you tell me the kits are worthwhile, maybe I'll put that on my Christmas wish list--I'm sure dh would love buying me a worm house for Christmas. :l0 (52):

I'd keep them in the basement which usually stays between 45?-55?, mostly around 50?. But it's the best out-of-the-way place that won't get disturbed and doesn't freeze during the winter. How much do they usually produce in, say, a couple months?

How much did you put on your garden? Did you put it straight on the garden or did you mix it with your garden compost? If you mixed it, did you let it "simmer" together for a while before putting it all on the garden?

[threepercent]

this comes back to the skills post. In a STHFS you need to know how to grow a garden, and keep your crops rotated (even if its a small area) and how to restore your soil.

In the SHTFS fertilizer may be unavailable, as it is for the most part a petroleum byproduct. same goes for pesticides.

there are 4 main things a garden needs:

nitrogen, phosphate, potassium, and ph.




that is the key (and water)

now, how do you do this when there are no trucks running?

now is the time to get this information while the internet is running:

http://lancaster.unl.edu/ag/factsheets/288.htm


learn of other sources such as manure, urine, fish, bone, blood, ash, and such.

happy learning.

[jennvan40]

Hi prairiemom,
We did commercial growing of the red wigglers so we started in 4 3foot by 3foot wood boxes and ended up, just before we quit, in a very large facility with piles about 2 feet deep and 3-4 wide and 100's of feet long. Literally mountains of worms and castings.
There is an optimal temperature for the worms which I believe is just around 80 degrees. I know that that isn't something most home composters can do but they still will do well in the 70's. I'm not sure how well they would do their job in a basement that is as cold as you described. There needs to be a high enough temperature for them to move (they are cold blooded) and therefore be hungry to eat and also for the bacteria to develop. Without both of those, the food you put in it might start to smell from rotting. That's not good for the worms. If done correctly, worms don't smell, especially in the small quantities a home composter would use.
I saw some stuff on the internet about using plastic bins to store the worms with a few holes cut in the bottom for drainage but I don't know that it provides enough air circulation for the worms. Moisture content and temperature are the two big problems with worms. I saw a rack system on one website which looked pretty good. It had a place where the "worm juice" collected at the bottom. That's awesome and if you put that on houseplants, they will outgrow their pots almost overnight. The worm juice is great for using on any plants. We actually had a couple of farmers use that instead of the castings on their large commerical farms since it was easier for them to dispense on already growing plants.
The worms get "upset" when they travel to you so it might take a while for them to start doing their stuff initially. I saw one site talk about how it takes a while for everything to balance out which is true but still just a month or so. You should probably have enough castings to use in a month. There is an optimal level of castings to have in the box. Too much and they won't "smell" the food you place on top of them, too little and they get cold. They also reproduce every 2-3 months so if you'd like to expand your own worm "farm" you can separate them out and let them go. Yes, to do that you do have to stick your hand in a big ball of crawly worms. We did it differently commerically but that's how you could do it at home. The castings are on the top of the worms, so when you start noticing that there is more than 2 inches of "stuff" on top of the worms, thats the castings you can pull off and use as fertilizer. You don't have to use it right away, you can put that in a bin and use as you need do.
Worms are absolutely fantastic for organic farming. We were using cow manure at times from a local farmer that couldn't figure out what to do with it. He was paying someone to haul it off and do something with it. He gave it to us for free, so we had free food for the worms. I think some people think you can put fresh manure directly on plants but the nitrogen hasn't been balanced by the bacteria and other bugs so its too harsh for plants at that stage, but worms love it.
These worms can eat through almost any organic matter. The company we were working with had contracts with several dumps to eat through the organic matter and even some countries that were looking to create sustainable agriculture.
The castings can be put directly in the soil or even used to plant. I have several house plants that have nothing but castings as the soil. Once you have the castings, there is no need for it to simmer or mature unlike manure. Its ready to go and is surprisingly dry. We dumped about 2 inches deep of castings onto our garden, not that you need that much, we just needed to get rid of it at that time. Holy hanna, we had no idea how much the plants would grow. Its just amazing.
Bottom line, if I were to do it, I'd probably get one of the stacking tray kits. They are more expensive but I think they would be easier to handle than just a big plastic box. Here is one I was looking at (I'm not affiliated with them nor do I suggest you get this one) http://www.wormsway.com/detail.asp?sku=WORMK The book they send with it is a good book on how to work with the worms.
Let me know if you have any other questions.

[prairiemom]

Wow! Too bad I can't click the "Thanks" button twice--that was a lot of good info. Now I'm convinced. Maybe I'll put it in our food storage room upstairs, it's a little warmer. But we keep the house 65? most of the winter, so I hope that's good enough. We'll see...

[signseeker]

Guess if prairiemom can't click it twice, she ain't gonna' click it at all! :coool:

So... can you get worms, like the nightcrawlers that kids sell on the sidewalk for fishing, and plop them out in the garden?

[jennvan40]

Signseeker: The nightcrawlers are ok to put in your garden but they may not give you the outcomes you are hoping for. The nightcrawlers bury themselves down deep in the soil while the red wigglers live closer to the topsoil. The nightcrawlers also don't eat as much and produce as much castings as the red wigglers. The red wigglers can eat 3times their weight every day. They are also a lot more aggressive as a worm, meaning they will move themselves around to the food and eat tons of food. They are REALLY wiggly, hence the wiggler name.

Prairiemom: I'm glad you appreciate the info. I didn't think it would come in useful after we got rid of them. :) I'm happy to share my learning and experience with others on this. I think its worth a try to see if the worms will be ok in an upper room like you are describing. Like I said, they do best in slightly warmer temps but will still do ok in less than ideal situations.

If you have any more specific questions, please feel free to ask more questions.

[Highlandsunrise]

I am excited about this!! Great information! Thank you jennvan!!
Your expertise will be very useful. I'm glad to know the difference in the worms. I wondered about that.
Signseeker, you have a great gift for simplifying. I need that in my life.
Prariemom, I am putting worms on my Christmas list. Do you think our husbands will think that is strange?
Threepercent, I printed that good info and will put it in my file when I finish reading it. Great Stuff!

Jenene (Highlandsunrise, FixItGuy's wife)

[prairiemom]

Guess if prairiemom can't click it twice, she ain't gonna' click it at all! :coool:


Well I thought I did click "Thanks" but apparently it didn't take. :07:

3%, I keep a good supply of bonemeal, greensand, guano, blood meal, etc on hand--enough for at least another year's garden. (along with vermiculite, peat and topsoil for making seed-starting mix the next year.) I don't like to use petroleum-based fertilizers. But in my book, nothing beats compost. I think our soil is just a little too clay-y, so I've been adding compost and green manure (cover crops) for several years (as well as my homemade mix of fertilizers) and am finally seeing some noticable results the last year or two.

Janene, rocks are the one thing I do NOT miss about living out west. We had a garden while living in UT and it seemed like it grew rocks overnight. We'd pick them out and the next day they were all back. The topsoil here is 3-4 ft deep. Not a rock to be seen. If you WANT rocks (like for a rock garden or to add interest to your garden), you have to go 40 miles to the west or buy them at a garden center. They sell for $15-30. Can you believe that?!? You guys could all make some money just bringing rocks here and selling them.

[Highlandsunrise]

Mmmm, topsoil 3-4 feet deep! Our first house has sandy loam with no rocks. I really thought I was a gardener and then we moved.
We have a farmer neighbor who picks the rocks up out of the field by hand, piles them on the side of the road and sells them. Doubt that they are a hot item. Old farmers around here say the frost pushes them up so they really do grow.

[signseeker]

What about guano?