Ask A Mormon

[Cowboy]

This thread is for non-members of the LDS Church to ask any question. We will do the best we can to offer a respectful and comprehensive answer.

[CurtisG]

I try to avoid the pitfalls of discussing religion among friends, but i was wondering why the LDS church advocates preparedness? I have had people ask ME the same thing.......:confused: so i ask them why their church allows them to smoke but not have a beer:sifone:(not really, but i wanted to)
Aside from being a prudent thing to do, does it involve the "end times" or specific prophecy?

[arbilad]

We do it because we're told to, basically. We've been told that it'll be as necessary for our temporal salvation as the ark was for Noah and his family. We haven't been told specifically why, though.

[JayE]

We have also been given examples from the scriptures, like when Joseph prepared the Egyptians to save during the seven years of plenty, so that they had food during the seven years of famine.

Also, the Mormon pioneers knew what it was like to suffer through hard times, so we have seen from experience the wisdom of preparing for hard times.

[phylm]

Also. the scriptures tell us that the man is the provider and protector of his family. If he is disabled, he may well unable to be that. I have personally known two large families who lived for more than six months on their storage and savings when the family heads were badly hurt in accidents. "Provident living" is what is counseled, and storage is a part of it. We may well need our storage to be able to serve "our neighbor" in the event of bad times.

[LEVE]

The Church's welfare program started in about 1912 and has morphed into more that what it was when it started. It not only helps people (members and non-members) in need but extended into what we do now to prepare for lean times. It may be a loss of a job, a spouse or a natural/man-made catastrophe. We really don't know what's ahead for our people. We do know that we've a living Prophet at the head of our Church and he's asked us to prepare ourselves. Though the Church has guidelines for preparation, it is left up to us to do so. Just as no man will be forced into Heaven, no man will be forced to prepare. The wise ones will.

[CurtisG]

We do it because we're told to, basically. We've been told that it'll be as necessary for our temporal salvation as the ark was for Noah and his family. We haven't been told specifically why, though.
Thanks. That is really a more clear answer than some would imagine. Let me use witnessing as an analogy. Many have asked "why witness when it doesnt seem to get through?" or "why witness if only Gods calling will change someones heart?" The answer of course is simple. You witness because a believer is commanded witness.

[Dr.Jride]

For a real decent answer, check out this web site; http://www.providentliving.org/

[Mrs Cowboy]

How can a church help save you spiritually if they can not help you save yourself temporally?

[CurtisG]

I've been to ProvidentLiving.org and a couple others. Is a 90 day supply with a year of the major staples like wheat or rice a guideline or is it commanded?
Funny thing here, back when my Grandmother was young most folks would have had a large store of food. Some one with only a few days worth of grub was either very poor or very foolish.

[JayE]

Is a 90 day supply with a year of the major staples like wheat or rice a guideline or is it commanded?

It is not a commandment. It is an emphatic and wise plea.

I suspect that a small percentage of church members have fully heeded that plea.

[CurtisG]

I read "Family Home Storage: A New Message". I know what a financial burden building up a year or even 3 months worth of provisions can be. The message seemed to be that the food storage could be done gradually as resources allow and still be "obedient to Prophetic counsel".
IMHO, if a Prophet is giving you some advice, its a good idea to listen:bonk:

[JayE]

I read "Family Home Storage: A New Message". I know what a financial burden building up a year or even 3 months worth of provisions can be. The message seemed to be that the food storage could be done gradually as resources allow and still be "obedient to Prophetic counsel".
IMHO, if a Prophet is giving you some advice, its a good idea to listen:bonk:

Yes, that is exactly right. You are wise.

For me, I do not distinguish between a commandment and "prophetic counsel". If a prophet says do it, I try my best to do it. There is no need to make it a commandment. But, there are those who do make a big deal out whether or not it is a commandment.

[KF7EEC]

It is not a commandment.

Really? It seems like President Kimball (and others) referred to it as a commandment. Am I going crazy? I'll have to research it...

[rhiamom]

Do it because it's the right thing to do for your family. You don't need to be a member of the LDS church to see the wisdom behind it. Doing it because it's a commandment is legalistic thinking, conforming to the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. If it's only a Strongly Worded Suggestion, and not a commandment, are you not going to do it? That it was only a Strongly Worded Suggestion won't feed your family if your job gets downsized.

[CurtisG]

Rhiamom's post is full of nuggets of wisdom. Its like an hour and a half sermon(the good kind lol) simmered down to one paragraph.
Lets break it down:
"Do it because it's the right thing to do for your family"-don't have chapter and verse here, but almost everyone is familiar with a verse about how someone who fails to provide for their family is worse than an infidel. I cant extrapolate that out into specific food storage requirements....but we all get the point.
"You don't need to be a member of the LDS church to see the wisdom behind it." - Howdy! Mama pig never raised a foolish child:l0 (59):
"Doing it because it's a commandment is legalistic thinking"- It's like tithing... putting x% in the offering because "you have to" isnt really impressing The Maker, acting out of faith and love for Him does.
"If it's only a Strongly Worded Suggestion, and not a commandment, are you not going to do it?"- When you were a kid and your Mom "suggested" that it sure would be nice if you got your room clean today......we knew it wasnt really optional didnt we???

Dont forget that my opinions are from the nonLDS perspective....i dont have any idea what y'all do with regards to tithing/giving for instance (topic for another thread, Cowboy)

[Aldon]

Well, it is the ask a Mormon thread.

Tithing:

We believe that the lord asks of us to give 10% of our increase as tithing. We are to pay an honest tithe and make other offerings such as Fast or to the educational or missionary fund.

One has to be a full tithe payer and living ones life in alignment with the commandments to be able to recieve the opportunity to go to the Temples.

It should be noted that paying more than 10% tithe is not necessary and leaders I have known have directed that we should use our monies more wisely. Those other offerings such as fast and missionary offerings would be a good place for additional funds should we feel so inclined to give of our selves.

It needs to be noted as well, that those who do not pay their full tithes are not ostricized or singled out. Paying their tithe is between the idividual and the Lord. Although the Bishop is aware of their compliance, the ward or congregation as a whole gererally is not privy to this information.

It should also be noted that there are those who do not pay a full tithe. They are welcome to attend church and work towards their own progression. Hopefully they come to recognize the blessings that come from obedience to that commandment at some point.

[prairiemom]

OBP, I love your perspective. You seem to get to the nub of everything without parsing it to death or passing it through some theological lens. Thanks.


a spouse or a natural/man-made catastrophe.

Sorry, this made me laugh. A spouse-made catastrophe???:l0 (61):

[arbilad]

I've come to realize that the 10% for tithing is the bare minimum that the Lord asks for you. If you want to give extra, fast offering is a great way to do it. There are a lot of people out of work right now, and I know at least one stake that is in the red on fast offerings (they pay out more than they take in (and for those of you not familiar with the church, the shortcoming is made up by the regional organization)). I've come to realize over my life that if I want more blessings, I pay more fast offerings.
Note: I do not feel that I'm buying anything. The value of what the Lord gives me is way beyond the meager sum I put in the tithing envelope.

[CurtisG]

Thanks all, it looks like my view of thithe/offering is right along with yours.

Another thing i have been wondering about is the word "Mormon". I refer to you all as LDS, being an abbreviation of the partial name of the Church, but is the word mormon seen as offensive.. or ignorant at best.. coming from a non member?

[Cowboy]

It is just a nickname form the Book of Mormon. Mormon was a prophet who lived around 400 AD.

[rhiamom]

I've met a few people who were much happier with "LDS" than "Mormon." Mormon tends to be used more inclusively, to include (frequently polygamist) breakaway groups. LDS refers more specifically to the largest group of people who hold the Book of Mormon as Scripture, the ones based in Salt Lake City. And the Reformed LDS bunch, too, I suppose.

[JayE]

Mormon was the ancient prophet who compiled many historical records into one volume, which Joseph Smith translated into English as the Book of Mormon.

While the nickname "Mormon" is not offensive to members of the church, it is also not the preferred way to identify an LDS person. We prefer to be called LDS. And if the word "Mormons" is used accurately, it refers only to members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". The reorganized church now refers to themselves as the "Community of Christ", but even when they called themselves RLDS, they never considered themselves Mormons. I have a cousin who is one of their members and lives in Independence, MO. The various splinter groups (FLDS, etc.) also do not consider themselves Mormons and neither do we. The only time you will hear someone call them Mormons is when an uninformed news reporter says it.

[CurtisG]

Thanks. Dont get me started on news reporters...they seem to be very uninformed on everything.

[signseeker]

"Mormon" doesn't bother some people. Like me. :)

[CurtisG]

Lolz, i know of one person who isnt bothered my being called "Loudmouth Mormon"

[CurtisG]

I have been reading threads about tent cities and other "end times" topics. I also read the "rapture or not" thread. I thought about posting my Protestant view but didn't want to..pardon the expression..."resurrect" a thread that old. Most of you will not be surprised to learn that my end times view manages to step on the toes of many non-denominational as well as brand-name evangelical churches.
So the first question, is there an official doctrine of the LDS Church about the "Second Coming" and events that is pretty much monolithic, or do Mormons hold to a variety of views?
Secondly, if you are willing, give a thumbnail sketch of your own chronology of how these events will occur.

[JayE]

I have been reading threads about tent cities and other "end times" topics. I also read the "rapture or not" thread. I thought about posting my Protestant view but didn't want to..pardon the expression..."resurrect" a thread that old. Most of you will not be surprised to learn that my end times view manages to step on the toes of many non-denominational as well as brand-name evangelical churches.
So the first question, is there an official doctrine of the LDS Church about the "Second Coming" and events that is pretty much monolithic, or do Mormons hold to a variety of views?
Secondly, if you are willing, give a thumbnail sketch of your own chronology of how these events will occur.

A chronology of events is pretty hard to nail down, as there is so much that is left out of the scriptures. Many of us do not agree on the timing of events. There are only a few things that are church doctrine concerning the 2nd coming. I cannot list all of them and the sequence is generally not exactly known, but I will give just a few examples of what the church teaches concerning the second coming.

1- No one knows the day nor the hour of His coming, neither shall they know until He comes. (D&C 49:7; Matt 24:36)

2- The righteous who are alive on the earth at the time of Christ's 2nd coming will be caught up in the air to meet Him as He descends. Also, the righteous who are dead will resurrect and will also be caught up in the air to meet Him. (1Thessalonians 4:16, 17; D&C 88:96, 87)

3- There is no rapture before the 2nd coming. The only time when the righteous are caught up in the air is at the 2nd coming.

4- The gospel will be preached in all the world before He comes. (Matt 24:14)

5- At His 2nd coming, Christ will come in the clouds of glory with all His holy angels and not in any other way. (Matt 24:30, 31; D&C 45:44)

6- At His coming, the elements will melt with fervent heat. The wicked will burn. There will be a new heaven and a new earth. (2Peter 3:10-12; Malachi 4:1)

7- Before His 2nd coming, there will be much tribulation, wars, destruction, plagues, false Christs. (Matt 24:21-24; D&C 45:26-42)

8- Before the 2nd coming, as Jerusalem is under siege and the Jews are about to suffer defeat (Armageddon), Christ will appear at the Mount of Olives and show His wounds to the Jews. They will finallly recognize Him as their Savior and He will defeat their enemies. (D&C 45:48-54; Zechariah 14:4, 5; Zechariah 13:6)

9- Also during Armageddon, two prophets will be defending Israel with the power of God. They will be killed and lie in the streets for 3 days, then resurrect and be taken up. (Revelation 11:3-12; D&C 77:15)

10- At the 2nd coming, Satan will be bound for 1000 years. (Revelation 20:2,3; D&C 45:55)

There is much more, so these are just a few. But, if you want a chronology, the church doesn't really have a firm doctrine on a chronology, or sequence, other than what I have posted.

[Cowboy]

In addition to what Jay has out lined, there are several events that will happen here in the US. The main event will be the building of the New Jerusalem by the decedents of Joseph (Jacob). This city will be build in the US (Independence, MO). I will add some scripture references shortly.

It will be from this city that the 2 prophets that defend Jerusalem will be sent.




Moses 7: 62 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/7/62#62)
62 And righteousness (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/7/62a) will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/7/62b) of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/7/62c) from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/7/62d) out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/7/62e), a New Jerusalem (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/7/62f).
Rev. 3: 12 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/3/12#12)
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/3/12a) of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/3/12b) Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev. 21: 2 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/21/2#2)
2 And I John saw the holy city, new (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/21/2a) Jerusalem (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/21/2b), coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/21/2c) adorned for her husband.
Ether 13: 3-6
(http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/13/3-6,10#3)
3 And that it was the place of the New (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/13/3a) Jerusalem, which should come (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/13/3b) down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.

4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/13/4a) Jerusalem upon this land.

5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/13/5a) from whence Lehi (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/13/5b) should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/13/5c) city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel.

6 And that a New (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/13/6a) Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/13/6b), for which things there has been a type (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/13/6c).
Genesis 49:26 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/49)

26 The blessings (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/49/26a) of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/49/26b) bound of the everlasting hills (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/49/26c): they shall be on the head of Joseph (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/49/26d), and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren. (I added this scripture to show that the descendants of Joseph would be in the Americas [everlasting hills]. The Book of Mormon is a record of these people from the time they left Jerusalem and migrated to the Americas in 600 BC. The history ends in about 421 AD)

[CurtisG]

JayE, i am firmly with you on points 1 through 5. I was raised in a church that taught the pre-trib secret rapture doctrine. Later when i began to study scripture, i realized what a false construct this was.

Cowboy mentions a New Jerusalem in Missouri. Is this built(or descended as in Rev21) before or after Christs return?

I want to thank you both for your input. I have certainly learned to tread lightly when discussing end time doctrines.

[JayE]

JayE, i am firmly with you on points 1 through 5. I was raised in a church that taught the pre-trib secret rapture doctrine. Later when i began to study scripture, i realized what a false construct this was.

Cowboy mentions a New Jerusalem in Missouri. Is this built(or descended as in Rev21) before or after Christs return?

I want to thank you both for your input. I have certainly learned to tread lightly when discussing end time doctrines.

You will notice many scripture references that are not in the Bible. Just so you understand where they come from, D&C refers to "The Doctrine & Covenants", which is a collection of revelations that Joseph Smith received from the Lord. It is divided up into "sections" instead of chapters. Basically, each revelation is its own section. References to the book of "Moses" are from another book of scripture called "The Pearl of Great Price". The book of Moses was revealed by the Lord to Joseph Smith while he was studying Genesis and covers many of the same stories that are found in the early chapters of Genesis, although with more detail. The book of "Ether" is found in the Book of Mormon and is a history of a once great nation that lived in North America anciently. So, when the reference in Ether talks about the New Jerusalem being in "this land", it means North America.

The New Jerusalem will be in part built on earth and partly descend from heaven. It will be established before the 2nd coming and will remain during the millennium. The part of it that descends from heaven will be the city of Zion that was taken up into heaven in the days of Enoch, before the flood, when Enoch and all the people of that city were so righteous that they were taken up into heaven. (Moses 7:19-69; Genesis 5:24)

The NJ will be a place of safety and refuge and the only place on earth that will not be at war (D&C 45:66-70)

The location of the New Jerusalem was revealed by the Lord to Joseph Smith in September, 1832 (D&C 84:2-4), also in other scriptures as referenced by Cowboy.

[CurtisG]

I knew about D&C and was going to point out that a non LDS Christian should be able to recognize the flaws in a "secret rapture" doctrine with just the Bible on their shelf.
I thought Pearl of Great Price was church history or biography, i didnt know it was considered scriptural. Well i learn something everyday.

I have the Bible, you have the Bible, BOM, D&C....unfortunately too many people have a $39.95 end times prophecy DVD set from some television preacher.:shocked:

[signseeker]

And in the event you didn't know this, all the LDS scriptures can be accessed from www.lds.org (http://www.lds.org) for free! Yay!

[JayE]

I knew about D&C and was going to point out that a non LDS Christian should be able to recognize the flaws in a "secret rapture" doctrine with just the Bible on their shelf.
I thought Pearl of Great Price was church history or biography, i didnt know it was considered scriptural. Well i learn something everyday.

I have the Bible, you have the Bible, BOM, D&C....unfortunately too many people have a $39.95 end times prophecy DVD set from some television preacher.:shocked:

We do accept the PoGP as scripture. It does contain some church history in it. It also contains the book of Abraham, which Joseph Smith translated from some ancient papyrus.

While I'm thinking of it, I would like to commend you for your respectful and intelligent approach to our beliefs. It is quite enjoyable to discuss these things with you.

[KF7EEC]

And in the event you didn't know this, all the LDS scriptures can be accessed from www.lds.org (http://www.lds.org) for free! Yay!

To avoid having to find them, you can go directly to scriptures.lds.org (http://scriptures.lds.org) to read them or here (http://lds.org/mp3/newarchive/0,18615,5249-1,00.html#TheScriptures) to listen to them.

[DMGNUT]

Being a convert myself, this is a great thread.

[CurtisG]

Now for the big question...Are there alot of Mormons in Utah????
LOLZ....just kidding:smile (2):
Really though i am of the belief that Christs return could occur at any moment, there is nothing else that needs to be fulfilled. Referring to JayE's point #7, a good case can be made that we have seen(and continue to see) all of those things. #8 could happen very quickly...you could wake up one morning and see it on TV.
#9 seems to imply that there will be some stuff going on before Christ appears that should make it clear to us that "its on like donkey kong"...as my kids would say.
So my question would be, is it the mainstream LDS opinion that there will be a long tribulation period that precedes the second coming?

[cHeroKee]

So my question would be, is it the mainstream LDS opinion that there will be a long tribulation period that precedes the second coming?

I would definitely say yes. We are still waiting for the "13 month War (1 yr, 1 month, 1 day)" spoken about in Revelations. From my readings this will have a devastating effect on the U.S.. Adding to the just mentioned statement the Lord will protect and lead the righteous prior to His "official" Second Coming, where the world will see His Face.

It will be a most definite tribulation for the wicked with the righteous having to bare up and do some suffering along with the wicked. I believe it is a period of faith and hope. We will all need to dig deep into our spiritual self, not only to with stand the physical strains but more importantly the spiritual stresses that Satan is and will shove on us as individuals and wonderful children of Our Heavenly Father.

[CurtisG]

Theres some good stuff here:http://ldsglo.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=14
Havent read it all though.

[JayE]

I would definitely say yes. We are still waiting for the "13 month War (1 yr, 1 month, 1 day)" spoken about in Revelations. From my readings this will have a devastating effect on the U.S.. Adding to the just mentioned statement the Lord will protect and lead the righteous prior to His "official" Second Coming, where the world will see His Face.

It will be a most definite tribulation for the wicked with the righteous having to bare up and do some suffering along with the wicked. I believe it is a period of faith and hope. We will all need to dig deep into our spiritual self, not only to with stand the physical strains but more importantly the spiritual stresses that Satan is and will shove on us as individuals and wonderful children of Our Heavenly Father.

The war that has been called the 13 month war, IMO, will not last 13 months. It may be longer or shorter, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that the wording found in Revelation 9:15 does not refer to the length of the war. Here is the verse:

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

At first glance, this seems to refer to the length of time that the angels prepare for the war. But when you consider the original Greek text, it should read like this:

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for THE hour, and THE day, and THE month, and THE year, for to slay the third part of men.

In that context it makes a lot more sense to me that the angels are preparing for a specific point in time that the war will start. The start of the war will be at a specific hour on a specific day, etc.

In any case, we have not yet seen a war that will slay the third part of men. It still needs to happen.

I also agree that some of these events can happen much quicker than we expect. One could make a case that the gospel has already been preached in all the world. I would not want to limit the Lord in how He accomplishes His work. Our attempts to predict the future are usually way off the mark. It is difficult to know how things will really happen. I expect some surprises.

[signseeker]

Wait- I thought a third of the people were dying because of the red tide or something? :blink:

I don't know how "long" most people think it will take. Sometimes we can get into all these signs and feel like we've got more time than we do. Things can definitely seem like they are happening slowly... like we have all the time in the world. At other times, it's stunning how quickly events can come to pass as well.

[DMGNUT]

I realize there are a lot of reasons for our temporal preparations. But the actual duration of the 13 month war aside, on the surface, it sure sounds like another good reason for our years worth of food and other preparations.

[CurtisG]

Being a convert myself, this is a great thread.
Are you willing to share with us how your view of "end times" has changed...or did it? You don't need to reveal your previous affiliation unless you want to.

[Cowboy]

Before you get the reply you have asked for, it is important for you to understand why our church has a very proactive stance for last days preparedness. In short it is because we believe in current and continuing revelation from a living Prophet. And in addition we have additional scriptural references. I am going to post below a reference from the Book of Mormon that explains how the Lord feels about His words and who gets them. Because of this added insight that more scripture brings to the table, we have a better reference on how the Lord will prepare His people and what we need to do.

Also I have some quotes from the Bible that point to the record of Joseph (Book of Mormon) and the record of Judah (Holy Bible) will be combined at some point. And the fact that Christ also spoke of other sheep in John.

When these records have come together, a more complete picture of the gospel and the dealings of God with His children becomes clear. With this information we know how and what to prepare for with more clarity.


THE SECOND BOOK OF NEPHI
CHAPTER 29

Many gentiles shall reject the Book of Mormon—They shall say: We need no more Bible—The Lord speaks to many nations—He will judge the world out of the books thus written. Between 559 and 545 B.C.

1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/1a) work among them, that I may remember my covenants (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/1b) which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/1c) time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;

2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/2a) of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/2b) forth unto the ends (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/2c) of the earth, for a standard (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/2d) unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;

3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/3a)! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/4a); and it shall proceed forth from the Jews (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/4b), mine ancient covenant people. And what thank (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/4c) they the Jews (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/4d) for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/5a) them, and have hated (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/5b) them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/6a), we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/7a) than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/7b) of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/7c) beneath; and I bring forth my word (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/7d) unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/8a) of two (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/8b) nations is a witness (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/8c) unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/8d) like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/8e) shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/9a) yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/9b) according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/9c) ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/9d) is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/10a); neither need (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/10b) ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/11a) men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/11b) the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/11c) which shall be written I will judge (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/11d) the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/12a) and they shall write (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/12b) it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/12c) it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/12d) nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/13a) shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/13b) tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/14a) of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/14b) of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/14c). And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/14d), who are of the house (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/14e) of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/14f) with Abraham (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/14g) that I would remember his seed (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/14h) forever (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/14i).



Ezekiel 37: 16-19

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/16a), and write (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/16b) upon it, For Judah (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/16c), and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/16d) upon it, For Joseph (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/16e), the stick (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/16f) of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/17a) in thine hand.

18 ? And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/18a) thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/19a), which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.



John 10:15-16
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/10/15a) I the Father: and I lay down my life (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/10/15b) for the sheep.
16 And other (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/10/16a) sheep (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/10/16b) I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/10/16c) fold, and one shepherd.



3 Nephi 15:13-24

13 And behold, this is the land (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/13a) of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/14a) it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.

15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/15a) tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.

16 This much did the Father command (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/16a) me, that I should tell unto them:

17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/17a).


18 And now, because of stiffneckedness (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/18a) and unbelief (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/18b) they understood (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/18c) not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/18d) concerning this thing unto them.

19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/19a) from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/21a) sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/21b).


22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/22a); for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/22b) through their preaching.

23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/23a) should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/23b) Ghost.

24 But behold, ye have both heard my (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/24a) voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/15/24b) me.

[LEVE]

May I suggest reading:

Seeing the Book of Revelation As a Book of Revelation (http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=a74279356427b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1)

[CurtisG]

Okay, I read it. I didnt have time to do all the scripture references, but i think the article is worth a look by everyone here.
I am of the opinion that when the people of the seven churches read the letter, they understood it in full. They werent standing there scratching their heads. Lund does a good job of pointing out that the symbols depicted in Revelation were assumed to be understandable by the reader and where clarification may be needed John provided it.
Heres a quote:

2. Do the scriptures themselves give us the interpretation of the symbol? Joseph Smith said, ?I make this broad declaration, that whenever God gives a vision of an image, or beast, or figure of any kind, He always holds Himself responsible to give a revelation or interpretation of the meaning thereof. ? Don?t be afraid of being damned for not knowing the meaning of a vision or figure, if God has not given a revelation or interpretation of the subject.? (Teachings, p. 291.)
Bottom line... i am glad to see that LDS doesnt hold to the "hyperliteral" view of Revelation. I also seem to share your view that there is no "rapture"... there will be a period of bad things happening(and also signs) and then Christ will return. It will be triumphant, dramatic, and certainly no secret:l0 (2):

[DMGNUT]

I was raised Lutheran. I don't know that I ever gave much thought to what their "end times" view was/is. In the last few years it has begun to weigh heavy on my mind. What I have read about it (especially from the LDS perspective), the more I feel it's pretty much what you just said above...
...there will be a period of bad things happening (and also signs) and then Christ will return.
Its that part about the bad things happening that tends to be motivating... at least for me. :l0 (32):

[CurtisG]

I was raised in Assembly of God(thats all i have to say about that-F.Gump)
I became a Lutheran(elca) after marrying a lifelong Lutheran. We left many years ago because of their increasingly liberal leanings, and began going to a non-demoninational church.
We havent found a local church to go to since moving to this rural area, but sometimes attend a Missouri synod Lutheran Church(very conservative branch)
You're right, the Lutherans dont delve much into the end times, but its pretty much considered a secondary(non salvation) issue.

[geanienut]

Thanks all, it looks like my view of thithe/offering is right along with yours.

Another thing i have been wondering about is the word "Mormon". I refer to you all as LDS, being an abbreviation of the partial name of the Church, but is the word mormon seen as offensive.. or ignorant at best.. coming from a non member?

Actually, the word MORMON means "More Good"

[DMGNUT]

Under "Real Life Experiences" I started a thread called "My Conversion Story" (its at the bottom of the page cause its pretty old). But it talks a little bit about my family's meanderings before we found the Mormon Church. Also you may notice that as a convert, I interchange the name Mormon and LDS with wanton abandon... and I should also be more clear, that it was actually the Church finding us, as opposed to the other way around.

[CurtisG]

Can someone give me an overview of the structure and "hierarchy" of the LDS church? I am familiar with ward and stake, but what does that mean? Are there districts? I know there is a President, and Bishops and some type of Elders...who is in charge at the local level?(preacher,pastor,minister?) How prominent is the role of "lay persons"?

[JayE]

Can someone give me an overview of the structure and "hierarchy" of the LDS church? I am familiar with ward and stake, but what does that mean? Are there districts? I know there is a President, and Bishops and some type of Elders...who is in charge at the local level?(preacher,pastor,minister?) How prominent is the role of "lay persons"?

There is a lot to say here and I don't have time right now to explain it all, but I will start and see how far I get.

Where there is a large enough gathering of church members, a congregation is called a "ward" and the presiding authority in a ward is the "bishop". If the congregation is not large enough, it is called a "branch" and the presiding authority is a "branch president". Several wards, usually about 6 - 10, make up a stake. Where there are not enough people to make a stake, there is a "district". A branch may be part of either a stake or a district.

Here is, in a nutshell, the organization of the church from top to bottom:

1st level - Prophet/President of the church with two counselors make up the "First Presidency"
2nd - The quorum of the twelve apostles, with one of them serving as president of the quorum.
3rd - Quorums of the "Seventy" I'll explain more on that later
4th - Areas with area presidents, each with two counselors.
5th - Stakes (or districts), with stake presidents, each with two counselors. A stake also has a "High Council" containg twelve men who are all high priests.
6th - Wards (or branches), with bishops (or branch presidents), each with two counselors
7th - Auxilliary organizations, each with a president and two counselors.

There are many different auxilliary organizations within a ward - Sunday School, Relief Society (adult women), High priests group, Elders quorum, Young men, Young women, Primary, etc. Each of these organizations has a president and two counselors. There are other organizations as well, but these are the main ones. There are enough positions to fill in a ward that most active members of the ward will have some kind of calling, or responsibility. All of the auxilliary presidents have authority to make decisions concerning their own area of responsibility. But the bishop has stewardship over the whole ward.

The bishop also has two counselors. The three of them together form what is called the "bishopric". They keep the ward running. Whenever there is a need to fill a new calling in the ward, the bishopric discusses the callings together, seeks the inspiration of the Lord in prayer and then makes a decision on who should be called to specific positions. Then, a member of the bishopric meets with that person to extend the call. The person may accept or reject the call.

With all that goes on in a ward, there are many activities or meetings throughout each week. Most active church members are kept busy with callings and other activities. A bishop shares the biggest load though, and may typically spend 20 -30 hours a week looking after the ward. The bishop receives no pay for his calling. In fact, at the ward, stake, or area level, no one is paid at all. So, every congregation in the church is directed entirely by lay members. Only at the highest levels are leaders compensated at all, and that is because it is their full time job and they have no time to make money otherwise. More specifically, the First Presidency, Twelve apostles, first and second quorums of the seventy, the Presiding Bishopric and a handfull of others do receive monetary compensation.

The First Quorum of Seventy is the administrative body of priesthood leaders that is next in line in the chain of command under the apostles. Members of that quorum, as well as all those in higher positions (apostles, etc.) are called for life to that position, unless they are later called to a higher position. Members of the Second Quorum of Seventy are called to a temporary calling, which may last a few years. All of the priesthood leaders from the seventies on up to prophet are referred to as "General Authorities" and as such, usually carry the title of "Elder". For example, one of the twelve apostles is named Dallin H. Oaks and we often refer to him as "Elder Oaks". The president of the twelve apostles is Boyd K. Packer and we refer to him as "President Packer".

Priesthood holders in the church are always male.

[CurtisG]

Thanks, i'm still digesting this but regarding branch/ward/stake, if i see a LDS Church(building,signage,parking lot) can i assume that this is a stake...or are wards often large enough to have a church building of their own?

[JayE]

Thanks, i'm still digesting this but regarding branch/ward/stake, if i see a LDS Church(building,signage,parking lot) can i assume that this is a stake...or are wards often large enough to have a church building of their own?

It is a ward building. Every ward has a building. There may be multiple wards that meet there too. There is no stake congregation. It is the wards that make the stakes. So, the stake offices are in a ward building. There are usually multiple buildings (churches) in a stake and one of them will be designated as the "Stake center".

There are some rare occasions where all the stake meets together in the same meeting. It happens about twice a year.

[JayE]

Where you live, in Texas, the church is well enough established that you will probably see only wards. It is doubtful that you will see any branches. A ward congregation on a typical Sunday could range anywhere from 100 - 400 people. Average is about 200 in a typical Sunday meeting. That is only those who are in attendance. If you go by how many names are on the records of a ward, it could be anywhere from 300 - 1000.

[LEVE]

A Stake consists of about 6 or more Wards and Branches. A Ward has a population of about 200 people, on up. A Branch is much smaller. If a Branch increases its population and can provide local Priesthood Leadership then it will become a Ward.

Wards and Branches can have their own dedicated buildings. Often a Branch may meet in a small building, or in a rented hall until it can grow.

Often there are multiple Wards meeting in one building if the area has a large LDS population. It may not be a Stake Building. Often a Stake building can be identified by a satellite dish receiver in the parking lot. It's used to receive General Conference sessions as well as other leadership meetings that are broadcast world-wide. Also, a Stake Building will have offices for the Stake administration and a High Council room.

Now to muddy the waters, sometimes satellite receivers are in smaller Ward and Branch Building parking lots of units that are very far from a Stake Building.

Wards will have signs on them identifying the Wards that meet there. Since Wards also meet in a Stake Building, there is rarely an identifying signage saying it's a Stake Building.

One thing to note is that LDS members go to the Ward/Branch that covers the area in which they reside. If you don't like the Bishop of the Ward... tough it out.. learn to love the Bishop and local leadership. There's no "Church Shopping/hopping" in the LDS Chruch seeking a "compatible" Bishop. You'll have to move out of the ward boundaries to do that.

[CurtisG]

It is a ward building. Every ward has a building. There may be multiple wards that meet there too. There is no stake congregation. It is the wards that make the stakes. So, the stake offices are in a ward building. There are usually multiple buildings (churches) in a stake and one of them will be designated as the "Stake center".

There are some rare occasions where all the stake meets together in the same meeting. It happens about twice a year.
Now i have it:yesnod: thanks.
Now to understand (local) church leadership, does a Bishop of a Ward compare to the Pastor/ Minister of a typical Protestant church in that he does the preaching, or do others share the duties of leading in worship?
LEVE mentions Priesthood Leadership, please explain that office. For instance is some kind of formal theological training/ordination required for this person?

[JayE]

Now i have it:yesnod: thanks.
Now to understand (local) church leadership, does a Bishop of a Ward compare to the Pastor/ Minister of a typical Protestant church in that he does the preaching, or do others share the duties of leading in worship?
LEVE mentions Priesthood Leadership, please explain that office. For instance is some kind of formal theological training/ordination required for this person?

On Sundays we have more than one meeting, but the main meeting where all the ward meets together is called "sacrament meeting". In a sacrament meeting, there are many speakers chosen from among the ward members. The bishop of the ward may, on rare occasions, speak to the ward, but typically he just arranges each week for different members of the ward to speak. Also, the meeting is usually conducted by a member of the bishopric. But, before we hear any speakers, we have what we call the "sacrament", where bread and water are passed to the congregation, while we remember the atoning sacrifice of our Savior. We all sit in our seats and it is brought to us, usually by young men ages 12 - 18. Sometimes older men will help too, but they must hold the priesthood.

Pretty much every male in the church over 12 years old, who is worthy and active in the church, holds the priesthood, but there are different offices in the priesthood. A 12 year old boy may be ordained a "deacon", if he is worthy. At 14 may be a "teacher" and at 16 a "priest". At 18 he may be ordained an "elder" and later on, if he is called to a position that requires it, he may be ordained a "high priest". There is no theological training, but ordination is required by one who holds the proper authority. Every priesthood holder in the church can trace his line of authority all the way back to Jesus Christ. For example, I was ordained a high priest by a friend of mine who was also a high priest. He was ordained by another, who was ordained by another and so on until Joseph Smith, who was ordained by Peter, James and John, who were ordained by Jesus Christ.

"Priesthood Leadership" is not a specific calling, but refers to many different positions that are considered leadership. For example, in a ward, priesthood leadership includes the bishopric, presidencies of auxilliary organizations and others. There is no formal training that one goes through to be called to any position, just like when Jesus called fishermen to be apostles. Although, it is typical for anyone who is called to a high position of leadership to be a fully active member of the church for some time. Those called to high positions of leadership must also be interviewed by a higher priesthood authority and found worthy to act in the calling.

In the church, qualifications to be called to a position of trust are generally only based on two things:
1- whether the person is worthy and
2- whether the person is called to the position by the appropriate authority.

We do not seek any position. No one ever applies to be a bishop. As Jesus told His apostles "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you", so it is in the church. We do not seek any position, but we accept the call when it comes.

[JayE]

Something else I just thought of that might help you understand - callings at the ward or stake level are temporary and have no pre-defined length of time. In the past I have been a primary teacher, Sunday School teacher, Elders' Quorum president, scoutmaster and advisor to the deacons quorum, ward employment specialist, counselor in a bishopric and several others. I currently serve on the stake high council, where I have been for two years. That could change at any time. Our current bishop has been in that position for two years.

When the time comes to put in a new bishop, the stake president will seek the guidance of the Lord and counsel with his counselors. After much prayer and pondering, the stake president will select a worthy man from the ward to serve as bishop and recommend that name to the First Presidency of the church and seek their approval. After that name is approved, the stake president will call that man to serve as bishop. That man will seek the guidance of the Lord and after much prayer and pondering will select two names to be his counselors and submit those names to the stake president for approval. After approval, the stake president then calls those two men to be counselors to the bishop. At that time the old bishop and his counselors are released and may serve in other callings.

We rely heavily on divine revelation, through the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[DMGNUT]

OneBadPig,
Jay has given an excellent run down of the structure of the Church. But I would like to add, from a converts point of view, a couple very small details that might be easy to misunderstand.

First... "Priesthood holders in the Church are always male."
This statement is completely correct, however, women (although they are not priesthood holders) are also given callings and leadership positions. Positions in Relief Society and Young Women, come to mind.

Second... "We rely heavily on divine revelation, through the gift of the Holy Ghost."
This too is completely true, but to elaborate just a bit. The Holy Ghost can provide direction and inspiration to anyone. However, we as members of the LDS Church, receive the "gift" of the Holy Ghost, as our constant companion, to call upon whenever we are in need of guidance. This applies only so long as we remain worthy of that gift. For example, one could drive away the Holy Ghost by using profanity.

I hope this helps, rather than adds confusion... :a0 (11):

[CurtisG]

Thanks all, i know more about LDS structure now than i do about the Lutherans. This all came up last week when a relative was wondering about the subject. I dont know why they thought i would know, but hey...i gots connections:biggrin (2):

[JayE]

Thanks all, i know more about LDS structure now than i do about the Lutherans. This all came up last week when a relative was wondering about the subject. I dont know why they thought i would know, but hey...i gots connections:biggrin (2):

Anytime you have more questions, on doctrine, organization, or whatever, please feel free to ask. There are plenty of knowledgeable people here.

[signseeker]

... and plenty of ... umm ... other stuff, too. :d0 (34):

[ghostcat]

... and plenty of ... umm ... other stuff, too. :d0 (34): Speak of yourself much???????:001_tt2:

[CurtisG]

How sad for Ted Kennedy that his death prompts this question.....
What does LDS doctrine say about Hell?

[Cowboy]

When you die you go to one of 2 places. Paradise or Spirit Prison. Paradise is a place that those who accepted Jesus Christ and tried to the best of their ability to keep the commandments and repent of their sins. Spirit Prison is a place that those who rejected the Savors teachings and lived wickedly and had no desire to repent. Those who commit murder and other unspeakable acts end up there as well.

They will stay in this state until the resurrection. There are 2 resurrections. The first will be those who are in Paradise. The second will be those in Spirit Prison ( more or less. There is a way out of spirit prison and into the first resurrection but that is another topic). Since those in spirit prison did not accept Jesus and His atonement, they will fall under the full demands of justice and will have to pay for their transgressions. The spirit prison is the Hell spoken of in the scriptures. After the resurrection all men will be judged and assigned there final place. This final place will be in 1 of 3 kingdoms of heavens. Only a very few will be cast out to outer darkness. This will include all of Satan's spirits who gave up there first estate to follow Lucifer, and a select few that knew God and had the spirit (Holy Ghost) witness to the truth of God and then they denied the experience. Brother Kennedy will most likely end up in the lowest of the 3 kingdoms of heaven.

Now Jay will look up the scripture references for all that I have said as well as I will. (Jay is much faster than I am). We will use the Bible to show you this as well as references from the Book of Mormon that teaches the same doctrine as the Bible. We might even throw in some modern day revelation that helps one understand the references in the Bible.

[Cowboy]

Here is a start. There are many more.

Luke 23: 43 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/luke/23/43#43)
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/luke/23/43a).


1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/18a) for sins, the just for the unjust (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/18b), that he might bring us to God, being put to death (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/18c) in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/18d):

19 By which also he went and preached (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/19a) unto the spirits (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/19b) in prison (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/19c);

20 Which (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/20a) sometime were disobedient (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/20b), when once the longsuffering (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/20c) of God waited in the days of Noah (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/20d), while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/20e) by water (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/20f).


Alma 40:11-14
11 Now, concerning the state (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/11a) of the soul between death (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/11b) and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/11c) home (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/11d) to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/12a), which is called paradise (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/12b), a state of rest, a state of peace (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/12c), where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/13a) of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/13b) did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/13c); there shall be weeping (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/13d), and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/14a) of the wicked (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/14b), yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/14c) looking for the fiery indignation (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/14d) of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40/14e), as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:40-42
40 There (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/40a) are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/40b) is one, and the glory of the terrestrial (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/40c) is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/41a), and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/41b): for one star differeth (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/41c) from another star in glory (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/41d).

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/42a); it is raised in incorruption:

[JayE]

How sad for Ted Kennedy that his death prompts this question.....
What does LDS doctrine say about Hell?

For now I will try to explain it as simply as possible, to avoid confusion. Later, when I have time, I will post scriptures and other references to support it.

When a person dies, the spirit enters the "spirit world" to await the resurrection. The spirit world is a temporary place, because everyone will resurrect, eventually. Even the most wicked people will resurrect. As Paul said: "For as in Adam all die, so shall in Christ all be made alive" (1Cor 15:22). The spirit world is divided into two places - paradise and spirit prison. The righteous spirits enter paradise, while the wicked enter spirit prison. More will be explained about this in my next post, but I will say that the division between paradise and spirit prison is probably a gradual one. The LDS view of Hell refers to spirit prison.

When a person resurrects, the spirit is reunited with the body, only this time it is a perfect body, no more subject to disease or pain. At the ressurection comes the judgment and the Lord determines the kingdom that a person will inherit - celestial, terrestrial, ot telestial. The type of ressurection that one receives is reflective of their eternal reward. The most righteous are resurrected with a celestial body. Those who were basically good, but not valiant in the testimony of Christ receive a terrestrial body. The wicked receive a telestial body. But all three of these kingdoms are kingdoms of glory. Also, only the righteous (celestial and terrestrial) are resurrected at the second coming of Christ, while the telestial people will wait until after the millenium to be resurrected. There is also a fourth category called outer darkness. That is reserved only for sons of perdition. To qualify as a son of perdition, one must know the truth, have a firm testimony of the gospel, then altogether turn away from it and fight against it. I suppose one could refer to outer darkness as hell, but it generally does refer to spirit prison.

[CurtisG]

Thank you all for your replies, i know answering this question is alot tougher than asking it! I am pleased to see that we have similar views with respect to there being various degrees of reward/punishment after we leave this life.
I was brought up in the teaching that there is Heaven for the people who have received salvation through Christ... and Hell for everyone else(Hell being a literal lake of fire with eternal torment) Study of scripture lead me to realise how problematic a "one size fits all eternal punishment" is. I could not reconcile how God, being the perfect judge, would sentence a run of the mill, cheat & drink sinner to the same fate as someone like Hitler.
So in Ted Kennedys case for example, he is not "burning in hell"....he is in spirit prison awaiting final judgement?

[Cowboy]

So in Ted Kennedys case for example, he is not "burning in hell"....he is in spirit prison awaiting final judgement?

The spirit prison is a place of darkness and suffering. So in a sense he is burning in hell. And he will stay there until he has paid the price for his sins. Then he will be judged according to his works and be placed in a degree of heaven based on those works.

[Soldierboy]

I am pleased to see that we have similar views with respect to there being various degrees of reward/punishment after we leave this life.
I was brought up in the teaching that there is Heaven for the people who have received salvation through Christ... and Hell for everyone else(Hell being a literal lake of with eternal torment) Study of scripture lead me to realise how problematic a "one size fits all eternal punishment" is. I could not reconcile how God, being the perfect judge, would sentence a run of the mill, cheat & drink sinner to the same fate as someone like Hitler.


Hi OBP!
Very interesting to hear that we have trod similar paths!

I was raised halfway between Methodists and Baptists (Mom was one, sister the other, and I went to both churches). Then in my late teens the family converted to Catholic. After a few years of thinking for myself, I came to the conclusion, as have you, that God's eternal justice and mercy as we read in the Scriptures, just did not support that simplistic heaven/hell doctrine I had been taught. I just could not believe that a good man like my stepfather for example, who was always honorable, treated his family and neighbors right throughout a long life, but had been turned off by some minister as a young man, would go to that lake of fire. While some evil mafia don could make a deathbed repentance and live in glory with the Lord. It made no sense to me, and that and other "doctrinal disconnects" led me away from both Protestant and Catholic churches.

I always had a testimony of Christ as my Savior, but just didn't believe the churches had it right, according to the Scriptures. It was that way for many years, and my DW and I explored many different kinds of churches and religions, but were never satisfied with what we heard.

Then about 12 years ago, we had a conversation with a new friend, Paul, who made no secret of being LDS. We were very curious about what they believed, not ever having talked about religion to one before. I remember trying out on him some of my few hard-earned beliefs after so many years of searching. One of them was this heaven/hell thing.

I told him I believed that there were very few who truly merited eternal punishment for their lives, and also very few who truly loved the Lord enough and put that in practice in their lives so they would merit the blessings of being with Him and Heavenly Father through eternity. Well, Paul surprised the dickens out of me when he said, "We Mormons believe something very similar, but we say it in a little different way." Then he went on and explained the "three degrees of glory" and perdition, as you have just heard. It made perfect sense to me, and really opened my eyes! He had my attention, after that, you can believe.

It was amazing to me how many of the religious/spiritual ideas we had worked out for ourselves over the years were reflected almost perfectly by the doctrines we learned from him and other LDS friends. They didn't try to convince us, as some religionists do, they only explained these things to us and let us decide for ourselves.

I must warn you of one thing, though. We ultimately were asked by our friends to take all this to the Lord in sincere and humble prayer, asking Him to let us know as clearly as possible whether the Church of Jesus Christ was true and whether Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God. I decided I DID need to know for myself, and did just that. Going into it, I wasn't at all certain about the Church or Joseph Smith, but I received my answer so clearly that I couldn't and can't deny it.

DW and I were baptized in 1998, me at age 60. Not a moment of regret since, many blessings too many to count have come our way as a result.

Sorry for the over-long note, but I felt that you might find our little story of some value to you in your own search for what the Lord would have each of us do.

[JayE]

It's been a very busy day for me and I'm just getting around to this. Cowboy has done an excellent job in providing many relevant scriptures. Here are just a few scriptures to support various doctrines:

All people will resurrect, good and evil - 1Cor 15:22; John 5:29; D&C 29:26, 27

Their judgment is at the resurrection - John 5:29; D&C 29:26, 27; Alma 11:43, 44

Spirits remain in the spirit world while they await the resurrection - 1 Peter 3:18-20; Alma 40:11-14; D&C 138

The type of glory that our body receives in the resurrrection reflects the kingdom that we will inherit - 1Cor 15:40-42; D&C 88:27-32

In the LDS version of the King James Bible, we have a "Bible Dictionary", which was written by a modern day apostle "Elder Bruce R. McConkie". In the Bible Dictionary there is an excellent explanation of Hell from the LDS point of view. It explains that it generally refers to that period of time for the wicked between death and resurrection, but Hell also refers to those few souls who end up in outer darkness, the sons of perdition. They do not inherit any of the three kingdoms of glory, but remain in outer darkness forever. Here is an excerpt from the BD:

In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76: 84-85, 106 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/h/dc/76/84-85,106#84)), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9: 10-12 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/h/2_ne/9/10-12#10)). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6: 28 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/h/hel/6/28#28); Moro. 8: 13 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/h/moro/8/13#13)) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19: 4-12 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/h/dc/19/4-12#4), which defines eternal and endless punishment.
On the other hand, the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition, are assigned to a place spoken of as a lake of fire - a figure of eternal anguish. This condition is sometimes called hell in the scriptures (2 Pet. 2: 4 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/h/2_pet/2/4#4); D&C 29: 38 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/h/dc/29/38#38); D&C 88: 113 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/h/dc/88/113#113)). This kind of hell, which is after the resurrection and judgment, is exclusively for the devil and his angels, and is not the same as that consisting only of the period between death and resurrection. The one group are redeemed from hell and inherit some degree of glory. The other receive no glory. They continue in spiritual darkness. For them the conditions of hell remain.

[JayE]

One more thing - I need to include these verses from D&C 19 that explain "endless torment", otherwise it may be confusing how one can suffer endless torment in a temporary condition (spirit world).

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore?
11 Eternal punishment is God's punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God's punishment.
13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;
14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
15 Therefore I command you to repent?repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore?how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit?and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink?
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

[CurtisG]

I am going to study on your answers for awhile, make sure i've got it down before asking other questions. I'm also trying to hold to the current topic (hell) before moving on to Heaven(or what you call 3 glories if i understand)
Thanks soldierboy for your testimony and for your service to the nation:l0 (2):

[JayE]

Soldierboy,

Thank you for your inspiring story. We need more of that kind of post here.

[Cowboy]

Just a note about the plan of salvation and your question about what happens after death. Most religions really do not answer these questions in detail or make assumptions that there is one heaven and one hell. You either make it or not. It seems that since the salvation of man is the key event in religion and the main purpose for coming to earth you would think that God would make it clear what man has to do to return to Him. The Bible has evidences of the spirit world (paradise and spirit prison), the preaching of the gospel to those who die without the opportunity to hear the gospel, the resurrection, and the degrees of glory in heaven. Also the atonement of Christ and the demands of justice. How Christ being the only perfect being could be the only one to satisfy the demands of justice for us, his children, if we would repent, we can qualify for His grace and mercy. For without it all mankind would be lost due to the demands of justice. No unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven.

We believe that the true church of Jesus Christ would have this knowledge of how man can be saved from the fall. Not only would it have the knowledge, but it would possess the authority from God to make it happen. Without both, man is lost. So why would God create an earth, place man on it, and not provide a way for him to return to God? That way being the knowledge of how to return, and the authority that would be recognized of God to perform the ordinances required to return. Baptism is the first ordinance of the gospel. Even Christ was baptized by one who had the authority to set the example for us to follow.

You have come to know the truth of several things independent of your association here. You have come to believe doctrines that you have not had in any organized religion. Yet when we explain things you say, "I am glad to see you believe the same way I do". Well this is not a coincidence. The spirit has been working in you and teaching you truth. Let us know when you are ready for more. We love to share because what we have may be the most important information for your salvation and true happiness.

[Cowboy]

I have copied these last 12 posts to a new thread about Hell. You can go to that thread with this link. We should use the new thread to continue this discussion

http://www.ldsglo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6996.

[LEVE]

"one size fits all eternal punishment" Also, to better understand it is helpful to know that Eternal is another name for God/Heavenly Father. Hence "Eternal Punishment" does not refer to a time period, but to the author of the punishment.

[JayE]

Also, to better understand it is helpful to know that Eternal is another name for God/Heavenly Father. Hence "Eternal Punishment" does not refer to a time period, but to the author of the punishment.

Yes, refer to post #73 in this thread for that explanation.

[CurtisG]

I have copied these last 12 posts to a new thread about Hell. You can go to that thread with this link. We should use the new thread to continue this discussion
.
Thats a good idea! The ask a Mormon thread is all over the map, whats on Curtis' (OBP) mind today might be a more accurate title:)
It looks like it would be better to just start a specific thread about a doctrine/ scripture question in the New to the Church or Just Investigating? (http://ldsglo.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=13) forum rather than piling onto the AAM thread.

[hiccups]

Bumping for OBP :D

Also, since my husband converted, there's really been less opportunity for me to have those "What do Mormons think about X?" type conversations. I live in a fairly LDS area, certainly not like Utah or Eastern Idaho, but more LDS than the other places I've lived. My point is that I don't tend to run into a lot of people with questions about the Church.

I just went to visit my BFF from high school for a few days and she actually asked me some questions out of the blue. Members of her family are either Catholic, some variant on the atheist/agnostic spectrum and one lasped Mormon. It seemed like she was asking questions where the stance of the Catholic church bothered her. They were very specific. I was able to answer some by saying "we believe X" and some by explaining the concept of person revelation and some by explaining the idea of coupling personal revelation with counseling with one's Bishop. Got to pull out the Joseph Smith quote about "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves" as well.

It was a nice conversation and it made me want to be a better friend. I feel this ache for her to have the gospel in her life.

[CurtisG]

Nice bump! Or as my kids would say, "you rezzed the thread."

It's sorta like "iron sharpening iron", answering questions helps you grow. Nothing teaches me as well as having been asked a question i didn't have an answer for....seeking then finding the knowledge burns it into my brain for good.
Seems like so many people are afraid to ask questions about religion.

[phylm]

One Bad Pig:

Visitors to our scrament meetings are often surprised to find women members giving the talks (preaching,) rather than the bishop, and opening prayer or benediction.

[ghostcat]

Visitors to our scrament meetings are often surprised to find women members giving the talks (preaching,) rather than the bishop, and opening prayer or benediction. Some of our women are surprised too!! (sister so and such, our scheduled speaker is home with the flu. Would you mind filling in for them...):l0 (63):

[CurtisG]

Bumpski

[CurtisG]

My wife just asked me if Mormons baptise. I dont know why she's asking me....:sifone:

Well that seemed like a random question, turns out she's watching "The Work and the Glory" on BYU channel

[Toni]

Yep, by immersion instead of sprinkling.

[Soldierboy]

My wife just asked me if Mormons baptise. I dont know why she's asking me....:sifone:

Well that seemed like a random question, turns out she's watching "The Work and the Glory" on BYU channel

I'm sure you had a ready answer for her by now, right? Baptism by total immersion, by one having authority. The next step following the sequence of: faith, then repentance, (then baptism), then confirmation as a Member, with reception of the Holy Ghost... Feels good! As a newbie and recently-ordained priest myself, when my DW decided to become a member, I was given the honor of doing her baptism. She survived, even though it took 3 tries on my part to get things exactly right! Wording has to be exact, and immersion total, with 2 witnesses making sure.

[Twizzles]

We do it because we're told to, basically. We've been told that it'll be as necessary for our temporal salvation as the ark was for Noah and his family. We haven't been told specifically why, though.

I have had a very strong feeling for having a one years supply of food and enough to care for myself in the event of earthquakes, economy etc. It is wise and prudent thing to do. We also have been counseled for many decades to provide for our families, now after all this time, it is actually the other FAITHS who are now believing in the 7 years and coming to the LDS Canneries to buy food from our system, and state they think we are very foolish to not be following the counsel to be prepared. They are literly now seeing and gathering for the 7 LEAN years of Joseph's Dream in Egypt. Others can exp0lain this much better than I have. This last YEAR I have had a VERY STRONG FEELING TO GET PREPARED NOW!!! SO I DID JUST THAT!!! Including my Cylinderstove with the chimney OVEN, a very good Alakanak Ulitimate ll Tent with floor liner and Chimney Protection Kit. Medical supplies, years supply of clothing (used from Deseret and garage sales etc). Set of Foam Clothing, hiking boots etc wool socks etc. you know the rest of the list. I have about 3 years of food storage for one person.

I don't just do things because I am told to do it, I do it after I have received my own personal revelation that is what I am to do for my family etc. I think we each have to gather differently as our own circumstances allow for. What works for one family may not for another one. We will be blessed for following the counsel, from our leadership!!! Heavenly Father also knows our financial circumstances, and if we follow the outline the Relief Society and the Canneries lay out, everyone can do something, to have extra as their budget allows. GETTING out of DEBT is a huge issue that needs to be HEEDED......and SAVING something out of each paycheck......even if it is $5.00 a month. I know it is very difficult now for many families.....I have sacrificed much to get my items, I sold ALL of my "PRETTY DECOR THINGS< ARTWORK and LARGE DECORATOR ITEMS, it felt so good to be following our Prophet, to by my wheat, oats, beans, oil, powdered milk etc. BUT....as each item went out the door it was huge burdon off my shoulders, and then I would immediately drive to the cannery or food storage store and buy items to add. The more I sold of my worldly things, the less I wanted them in my home....The doors opened up wider and wider as I made the commitment to let go of the WORLD and gather in to my home the spirit of HF so I could be prepared.:l0 (26): The rain will come.....we just do not know exactly when!!! I do not want to be without the OIL in my LAMP. If I am not prepared how will I be trusted to help others along the way??

[Twizzles]

I'm sure you had a ready answer for her by now, right? Baptism by total immersion, by one having authority. The next step following the sequence of: faith, then repentance, (then baptism), then confirmation as a Member, with reception of the Holy Ghost... Feels good! As a newbie and recently-ordained priest myself, when my DW decided to become a member, I was given the honor of doing her baptism. She survived, even though it took 3 tries on my part to get things exactly right! Wording has to be exact, and immersion total, with 2 witnesses making sure.

Good for you Soldierboy!!! What a huge blessing that was for both of you. Now you are sharing your testimony of those blessings.:a0 (16):

[CurtisG]

they think we are very foolish to not be following the counsel to be prepared.
Why is Jay pointing at me????:shiny:

Yes Soldierboy & Toni i knew, including immersion requirement which is the bibilical example. I also reminded her of vicarious baptisms.
Did we discuss infant baptism earlier? As soldierboy pointed out, faith then repentance (which i dont consider a baby of being capable of nor needing) precedes the baptismal.

[Soldierboy]

Did we discuss infant baptism earlier? As soldierboy pointed out, faith then repentance (which i dont consider a baby of being capable of nor needing) precedes the baptismal.
I don't recall whether infant baptisms was discussed, but in the Book of Mormon it is a BIG NO-NO! (You have the book, right?) In Moroni chap 6 (page 525), the Prophet Mormon REALLY hammers this home! He calls it, "solemn mockery before God", as "little children are whole for they are not capable of committing sin." He also says, "little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world."

Mormon goes on to tell Moroni to teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children"!

Pretty clear, eh? :-)

[CurtisG]

(You have the book, right?)
No sir, but lately i have been wanting the BOM and D&C so i can read scripture references in context.

Yes that's clear. There is a church down the road that says a baby that dies before a guy with his shirt turned backwards sprinkles water on the kids head will burn in hell. Nice :-(

[JayE]

Here are a few verses from Moroni chapter 8. This chapter is a letter that Mormon had written to his son Moroni.

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and
your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the
righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician,
but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for
they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of
Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them;
and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of
God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn
mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye
teach--repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and
capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must
repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little
children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither
baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling
the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the
foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and
also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many
little children have died without baptism!