Giving from FS

[prairiemom]

The old argument that always comes up: If the bishop asked you, would you turn your FS over to the church to be redistributed? It looks like a smaller-scale version of the scenario is unfolding right now. This is a discussion on another LDS board: http://www.ldfr.com/board/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=048558#000010

[ktcottle]

I would probably share as well, but doesn't it always go back to the 10 virgins - not enough oil to go around (spiritual and temperal)??? Maybe I would trade some of my food storage for that persons nice big boat :l0 (57):

Regardless, if we looked at everyone as if they really were family, we all would probably be more than happy to give of our food and help. If we loved them as much as we loved our children....or is Unconditional love only something the Savior has to have??? Doesn't mean there is no such thing as accountability though....

I hope this forum will bring about a good discussion, I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts, especially now when times have changed so much in the last 12 months.

[signseeker]

Yeah... I wonder how fast this all happened? They were laid off, got to move in with other families they didn't know and got to receive free food? Not bad...

[signseeker]

Just a quick aside and not wanting to hijack the thread... the word "unconditional" is found nowhere in the scriptures. Everything, from temporal blessings to Exaltation, is wholly conditional.

[Cowboy]

If you have been through the temple, you have already committed to share. It is as simple as that.

[LEVE]

While in Welfare meeting yesterday morning I brought up the subject of Financial Counseling courses (such as Dave Ramsey) being taught to our Ward Family on an on-going basis. This was not the first time I've breached the subject.

The Bishop said that for most people in our Ward "It's too late." He said that sometimes he wishes he really knew what was the financial state of every family in the Ward. I asked him if he really wanted to know, and if he were prepared for the information he may receive if the knowledge flowed to him. He said: "No..."

Be careful what you ask for.

We then had a discussion of President Hinckley's "7 fat and 7 lean years" statement. He's amazed at what some people spend money on in our Ward.. and it's filled with a great amount of the financial poor. Provident living has taken a back seat to just struggling... in the last four months five families have lost houses to foreclosure. It's too late to help those five families, they're gone out of the Ward; it's not too late to help others before they get into such a state.

Food storage is fine, and dandy, but you also need a roof over your head. Like all of the Lord's programs, they go hand in hand. You can't ignore one for the other and expect the blessings of Heaven to flow congruently.

The Priesthood must lead this idea of Provident Living. When the Quorum leadership fails, then the Quorum members fail. When the Priesthood is out living it up with their boats, motorcycles, snowboards, skis and other sports recreation during non-working hours in the guise of "Family Time" they are only sealing their doom, an the doom of their family. The sheep are separating themselves from the goats.

It's time for many in the Priesthood to put away their childish toys, manners and thoughts, grow up and take the place at the head of their families and seek the blessing of Heaven and not of their fellow men.

When they do this Heavenly inspiration will flow, as will blessings when they act. The will be able to accomplish the things God as set before them. How many times have I sat in council with Priesthood holders while they tell me that their wives don't respect them, don't honor them as they're called to do. I have to remind them of their covenants and ask them if they're really fulfilling them and remind them that women don't always respond to "I love you" type remarks. They want to see action... they want to see that the men they married are really taking God's word serious and that they understand and wield the Priesthood in their families as they should. That said, I've seen when men rise to the Priesthood and take hold of it and use as the tool God gave men to save their families that the righteous women in these families have burdens lightened and can follow under righteous direction to further assuage the needs of their families.

This flows down to the children and all help in "Gathering safely in" and Provident Living is accomplished.

But it comes at a cost, and that cost is putting away the things of the world. For some it's a sacrifice, for others it's a privilege.

I had these thoughts further cemented in the opening exercises of Priesthood. The Stake asked for one volunteer from the Ward to show up on Monday morning to help do some grounds keeping at the Temple.

Without hesitation the Bishop raised his hand.... We Priesthood holders in our Ward could all follow that example with exactness.

Like all things, it's a matter of priorities.

[prairiemom]

If you have been through the temple, you have already committed to share. It is as simple as that.

No, we committed to build the kingdom.

My concern with what happened in this stake is that members' FS was being drawn down before all other resources had been exhausted--extended families, Bp's storehouse, gov programs, etc.

[LoudmouthMormon]

Apparently a branch in our stake had a huge lay off, I heard that it was Tyson Chicken. Since the Lay off the branch went from 300 members to 1500 members and that they needed food.Now, I can't speak to why the storehouse or emergency fast offering funds aren't working here, but I see the part I quoted as a completely realistic event. You don't even have to use the word fraud, or think of people joining the church just to get fed, to see realistic numbers like this. Just good people suffering from a lack of preparation.

Consider large scale unemployment. Folks lose their house/can't pay the rent, so they move back in with their parents, who are off trying to quietly retire in a small branch somewhere.

Hefty economic disasters cause population shifts.

LM

[signseeker]

If you have been through the temple, you have already committed to share. It is as simple as that.

I believe you are speaking of the last covenant and promise in the endowment? What you are consecrating (which I see differently than simple unconditional giving away - it is set apart and declared sacred, among other things) to is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the building up of the kingdom of God on earth and the establishment of Zion. This, to me, takes some solemn thought... you have a stewardship here. If you don't consecrate to the Church, kingdom, Zion... are you fulfilling this covenant?

Excellent post, LEVE!

[Cowboy]

No, we committed to build the kingdom.

My concern with what happened in this stake is that members' FS was being drawn down before all other resources had been exhausted--extended families, Bp's storehouse, gov programs, etc.

If your Bishop or Stake President asks for it then it must be the last resource. They would not use that resource if it was not the last resort.

[arbilad]

While I'll share the moment my Bishop asks me to, I don't think that I'll ever be asked that by him. I have several reasons for this.
First, the commandment to store food is more spiritual than temporal. It is a test to see if you'll follow the Lord even when that advice doesn't seem necessary. There is no way that I can share that spiritual preparation with someone else.
Second, if things really start collapsing gas will be at a premium or impossible to get. Most of us do not live in Utah. It would be really hard to impossible to arrange a sharing setup, because we have longer distances to drive to each other's houses or to the meeting house. Food storage is bulky and hard to transport, and I don't see people carrying it on their backs to their neighbor's house 10 miles away.
Third, at most about 16% of the membership have any food storage. Split amongst all members that wouldn't be much food at all. Sure, I believe in miracles, such as the widow and the cruz of oil. But miracles follow those who have faith. If you didn't have faith to follow the Lord's command and get food storage, you will not have the faith necessary for miracles of that magnitude.
Fourth, I can't live a commandment for someone else. I can't live the Word of Wisdom for you. I can't live the Law of Chastity for you. I can only do that for myself. Similarly, we have been commanded to store food because it will be as necessary for our salvation as the ark was to Noah. In other words, there will come a time when obedience to that commandment will provide temporal salvation. The Lord tells us that when we do not do as He says, we have no promise. Only those who have followed the commandment have the promise of the Lord of the temporal salvation He talked about. He is not looking for simple physical goods, He is looking for obedience. You can't share that. Those who do not live this commandment have no promise of the blessing attached to it.
I have other reasons, but I'll keep it short for now.

[signseeker]

If your Bishop or Stake President asks for it then it must be the last resource. They would not use that resource if it was not the last resort.

So all the government programs are now officially exhausted? Hang on, folks!

[mirkwood]

If your Bishop or Stake President asks for it then it must be the last resource. They would not use that resource if it was not the last resort.

Not necessarily. I have heard bishops & SP's say, and seen written ward/stake plans, where collection is the plan period. Stewardship over my family is my responsibility. It is my FIRST responsibility, followed by my own extended family. From there it would extend to those who did not know (i.e. non-members) and who truly could not and then to the willfully disobedient. There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven upon which all blessings are predicated. The mentality being taught in some wards/stakes that we will just pool everything together is wrong on many levels. First off it teaches disobedience to a gospel principle. "Don't worry, we will take care of you." Surprisingly this is actually being taught out there. It also spiritually dampens the disobedient who are ignoring inspired counsel from the Prophet. We cannot expect to be blessed when we do not obey. Charity and consecration will have thier place, however to expect someone else to sacrifice their family's well being is not doctrinal.

[mirkwood]

Sure, I believe in miracles, such as the widow and the cruz of oil. But miracles follow those who have faith. If you didn't have faith to follow the Lord's command and get food storage, you will not have the faith necessary for miracles of that magnitude.


I hear this one a lot as well. It comes from people who have failed to prepare. My response to them is that I think it is wonderful that they have the faith that the food will extend miraculously, but it is too bad they do not have the faith to store food for their own family.

[Earthling]

I am SO tired of people telling me they are coming to my house . . . if I could do it all over again I would never have let anyone know I had any food storage. This happened because I was the ward emergency prep person for a bunch of years so they figure I was practicing what I was preaching. I didn't influence very many to get their storage although I really tried - it just put me and my family in danger. . . Too bad moving isn't really an option. :rant:

I like what a friend said - if the bishop claims God wants my storage then I will tell him I will ask God myself and go from there. I don't see the bishop or S.P. as being God (I have had plenty of bishops with lots of problems & some excommunicated).

I am prepared to share what I am able without putting my family at risk. As Mirk said - my family is my first responsibility - not the neighbors, church, etc. Guess I'll share with Mirk since he is "extended family" - maybe he'll share some bullets with me. :l0 (46):

Didn't know I could be such a "little rebel" did you?

[prairiemom]

I hear this one a lot as well. It comes from people who have failed to prepare. My response to them is that I think it is wonderful that they have the faith that the food will extend miraculously, but it is too bad they do not have the faith to store food for their own family.

That's an excellent point--if God can miraculously multiply food, then He would have multiplied food/money as you practiced principles of Provident Living and you would have your food storage, wouldn't you? He performs miracles after our faith/obedience, not in spite of disobedience.

[prairiemom]

Not necessarily. I have heard bishops & SP's say, and seen written ward/stake plans, where collection is the plan period. Stewardship over my family is my responsibility. It is my FIRST responsibility, followed by my own extended family. From there it would extend to those who did not know (i.e. non-members) and who truly could not and then to the willfully disobedient. There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven upon which all blessings are predicated. The mentality being taught in some wards/stakes that we will just pool everything together is wrong on many levels. First off it teaches disobedience to a gospel principle. "Don't worry, we will take care of you." Surprisingly this is actually being taught out there. It also spiritually dampens the disobedient who are ignoring inspired counsel from the Prophet. We cannot expect to be blessed when we do not obey. Charity and consecration will have thier place, however to expect someone else to sacrifice their family's well being is not doctrinal.

That is what bothers me about this particular incident that actually happened. It bothers me that so many work on the premise that the call for pooling our FS will only come under inspiration by men who know more, have a bigger picture than I do. But clearly in this particular case, the SP did NOT exhaust all other avenues: as Signseeker pointed out, the gov programs are NOT exhausted (yet). I'm fairly certain there's still food in the Bishop's Storehouses. There may be a shortage at the Storehouse nearest this particular ward, but then that's when SP's are authorized to purchase from local sources until food from the storehouse can get shipped. In this particular case, I really can't see a legitimate reason for asking members to deplete their FS.

So I think it's a fairly safe bet that neither church nor gov resources were exhausted. And if one SP abuses (or misuses) the trust of his members by asking for their food when it's not appropriate, isn't it possible others will as well?

[mirkwood]

That's an excellent point--if God can miraculously multiply food, then He would have multiplied food/money as you practiced principles of Provident Living and you would have your food storage, wouldn't you? He performs miracles after our faith/obedience, not in spite of disobedience.


That is great and just got added to my collection of "sayings".

[geanienut]

That's an excellent point--if God can miraculously multiply food, then He would have multiplied food/money as you practiced principles of Provident Living and you would have your food storage, wouldn't you? He performs miracles after our faith/obedience, not in spite of disobedience.


Can I share your quote ?? I LOVE it..

[threepercent]

While I'll share the moment my Bishop asks me to, I don't think that I'll ever be asked that by him. I have several reasons for this.
First, the commandment to store food is more spiritual than temporal. It is a test to see if you'll follow the Lord even when that advice doesn't seem necessary. There is no way that I can share that spiritual preparation with someone else.



lol, the commandment to share food may be more spiritual than temporal....

[Charsee]

This is a bit off topic but something I have thought a lot about lately. My husband was unemployed last year and recently we had to pay off our "fees" for using our 401K money on our credit cards which put us back into substantial debt. So I struggle with whether and how much you should give to "charity" when you are in "bondage" yourself.

I don't think people have realized an important thing lately...The world has changed!!! With little credit out there, few people have any money that isn't needed to pay off credit card and other debt...seen the new interest rates and fees on credit cards lately? The average family in the US has around $10,000 on credit cards and that money is growing.

I talk to friends that are angry and think that people in their ward should be ashamed to go on vacation or play with their "toys" when there are people losing their homes and jobs...they should take that money and help the people in their ward. ( I would strongly advise those with money, if I could, to take the money and get out of debt and get a reserve of food and money for the future but...) Since my family has gone through frequent years of such challenges (and the church has never helped us because we had access to credit, hard to sell assets, etc.) I have to wonder why suddenly people are getting angry because the church or people in their wards are not bailing them out and paying their house payments or taking them in and housing and feeding them. I guess it goes back to the saying, "if you're unemployed it's a recession, if I'm unemployed it's a depression." Or perhaps if you can't make ends meet it's because there's something wrong with you, but if I can't make ends meet other's should sacrifice and help me out...if they are truly Christian. They may even think that at some time in the past they have given generously to others and so they should get help back now in return. The problem is that in the past most people gave of their excess...but now most people don't have that.

Like the people of old in Christ's time we have given of our excess...and for many that was borrowed money too. Most people are reduced to only having "widow's mites" in their "treasuries" with which to pay the "usury" of their past extravagant lifestyles. Most LDS people are already (as President Hinckley warned us) in "bondage". They cannot resell these assets for the price of their debt because there are few people who have the credit or savings to buy them. Do not expect that they can or will go into further debt to help those in need. Do not look at these people and see wealth. They do not have it...they have debt. My stake president gave a talk on how one of the biggest sins he sees right now are the sins of envy of people looking UP and perceiving that other's have more than they do, when really they just have more DEBT which none of us should envy them for.

Whether it is food, or jobs, or money, all people it seems feel that there is "someone" with vast amounts of excess that should "bail them out." If they can't help everyone then they should help THEM and no one else. How dare these made up rich people (i.e. jewish, mormons, wealthy, white, religious, government, prepared, etc.) not share! they should share because of their or our...(righteousness, race, education, parentage, neighborhood, friendship, association, past charitable contributions, etc.)

I worry for myself and other older families. Most people have not diversified their investments and have seen much of their net worth evaporate this year. Many of those with some equity in their houses or some savings left in their 401Ks are older people looking at long years of no income ahead due to old age. Their stewardship is to prepare and provide every needful thing for their own family...which preparation should include money in reserve for the time when they cannot work to provide for themselves and will likely suffer ill health.

I have heard it said that the church going forward must change their focus on sustaining life, not member's lifestyles. Of course our Father would not smile if it came down to a choice between having savings and seeing our neighbors starve. But we are not to that point yet...or are we?

[Charsee]

Our area stakes provide food for the homeless so we are asked to buy foods that come in easy to open containers such as cans of stew with pop off tops and desserts or fruit in the easy to open containers. Can't make anything because then it could go bad or those passing out the food could have liability issues if the homeless chose to sue because...

[Aldon]

My stake president gave a talk on how one of the biggest sins he sees right now are the sins of envy of people looking UP and perceiving that other's have more than they do, when really they just have more DEBT which none of us should envy them for.


I think he is right on the money!

And those who are complaining that the church and it's members are not helping enough are simply grasshoppers.

The only thing I am in debt for and thus subject to usury is my home....and that leaves me with nothing substantial at the end of the month.

But we do try and pay our offerings along with our tithes.

It is hard for me but I need to remember to forgive these people who are condemning th echurch and members for their lack of charity and need to remember to pray for them so that their burdens may be light....that they have an epiphany and see the lessons that the Lord would have them learn.

I know that the Stake is in the RED Fast Offering wise and that is in the area that usually was a main contributor in past times of hardship.

[CurtisG]

The system seems to be crashing. I expect we will all feel it.
Even the people who have been good stewards of what the Lord has provided them have seen what were fairly sound investments decrease significantly in value.
Could someone clarify "Fast Offering"?

[LEVE]

Members of the Church have been asked to fast for two meals, usually on the first Saturday night-Sunday morning of each month. (http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=586a2f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____) Then, the members are asked to take the money that would have been used to provide those missed meals and donate that amount to the Church's Fast Fund. These funds are then collected transferred that day to Salt Lake City. The monies in this fund is used for relief of the poor and needy. As example, a Bishop can use fast funds to help anyone (not just members) with food, rent, utilities, etc., that the Bishop deems in need.

It's the Lord's welfare plan.

[signseeker]

So I struggle with whether and how much you should give to "charity" when you are in "bondage" yourself.



I have a friend that brings up this very point when discussing the bankruptcy laws of Utah. Utah's had quite the reputation for personal bankruptcies I'm sure everyone knows. 15% is allowed on your schedules to go toward "charitable organizations" ... which could be anything from the Church to your own backpocket. My friend thinks people filing bankruptcy should lose their temple rec's, since the Church, through tithing, is basically taking away some other (legitimate?) creditor's money... That creditor gets screwed so the charitable organization can keep going. He doesn't think that's honorable on the Church's part and wonders how those laws were put in place to begin with... probably Church politicians? Anyhoo- :001_07:

[Aldon]

Sign,

Are you saying that your friend believes that Creditors should be paid first and then tithing?

[Charsee]

Not paying tithing never crossed my mind since I have tried to always pay the Lord first. But having debt does have moral implications I don't think most of us have thought about...

My thoughts center more on my food storage and should I share it with those in need or sell it to pay off my debts or keep it in reserve for when people are truly starving...you know...all those people I love like family and close friends that say, "I know where to go when things get bad."

[signseeker]

Are you saying that your friend believes that Creditors should be paid first and then tithing?

Yes, and I think he is disappointed with the Church for not taking that stand. If you are screwing your creditors and yet think you are okie-dokie with the Lord, you are deceiving yourself. He thinks the Church should encourage the pay-off of debt more than they presently are. He doesn't like seeing people file bankruptcy without so much as a twinge of guilt, keep attending the temple and figure they're in the CK as fast as the next guy. He thinks the Church is encouraging bad behavior and a lack of fundamental character with their current policy. That they are placing the Church higher on the priority list than other creditors. This only comes up with BANKRUPTCY, mind you, not with debt like a mortgage or something where you are keeping up with your bills. Basically the screwed creditor is paying your tithing for you.

(I'd love to hear something I can counter him with. I'm usually stuck not knowing what to say and starting to agree with him... :d0 (8):)

[Aldon]

My gut reaction which would need to be followed up on to see if it is doctrinally sound is that teh Lord is who requires the Tithe, not the Church.

And then it goes to the laws that the Lord has given us on Usury. There is a thread on that from a while back.

In the OT, they had periods every 7 years where debts were forgiven.

In the end, I guess it will come down to whether the indiividual who is in debt was a stalwart steward or whether they abused the system thinking they had an easy out.

This is a prickly issue to be sure.

[arbilad]

lol, the commandment to share food may be more spiritual than temporal....

If the Lord commands me to share what I've stored with someone, then I'm sure he means it for my spiritual benefit more than my temporal benefit. After all, if you're giving away your temporal stuff, you're putting yourself on shakier ground, temporally speaking.
However, I could give my entire food supply to someone and it wouldn't save them, because it's not the actual food that saves them - it's the Lord. If you are a member of the LDS church and you haven't had the faith to store food as we have been commanded to do, then you don't have the faith to save you during the trials before the 2nd coming, whether or not others share with you.
So yes, if I am commanded to share, temporal benefits don't really enter into it, either for myself or for the receiver.

[LEVE]

I'll still side with Brigham Young on this problem... he's lived the principle.
The first year that I came into this valley I had not flour enough to last my family until harvest, and that I had brought with me, and persons were coming to my house every day for bread. I had the blues about one day; I went down to the old fort, and by the time I got back to my house I was completely cured. I said to my wife, ?Do not let a person come here for food and go away empty handed, for if you do we shall suffer before harvest; but if you give to every individual that comes we shall have enough to last us through.?

I have proven this many a time, and we have again proven it this year. I have plenty on hand, and shall have plenty, if I keep giving away. More than two hundred persons eat from my provisions every day, besides my own family and those who work for me.

I intend to keep doing so, that my bread may hold out, for if I do not I shall come short. Do you believe that principle? I know it is true, because I have proven it so many times.

I have formerly told this community of a circumstance that occurred to brother Heber and myself, when we were on our way to England . We paid our passage to Kirtland, and to my certain knowledge we had only $13.50, but we paid out $87.00; this is but one instance among many which I could name.

You who have flour and meat, deal it out, and do not be afraid that you will be too much straightened, for if you will give, you will have plenty, for it is God who sustains us and we have got to learn this lesson. All I ask of you is to apply your heart to wisdom and to watch the providences of God, until you prove for yourselves that I am telling the truth, even that which I do know and have experienced.Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 3, p.332-333, June 8, 1856.

I like his style!

[LoudmouthMormon]

The crotchety old crumudgeon in me notes: Brigham told everyone to share with the folks who made it to Utah. Every one of them had passed a trial of faith and endured hardships.

What I'd like to see, are Brigham's exhortations to the saints as everyone was leaving Nauvoo, and the oodles of unprepared Mormons started showing up and complaining about how hard they had to work to move a mile in the snow in a wagon someone else had loaned them.

LM

[phylm]

Excellent, Leve! Thank you for bringing that up.

[signseeker]

See, I wonder if that "hey- everything's great! Just give all your stuff away and you'll be just fine!" attitude is a little too prevalent in the LDSs of today...??? You know if Utah was last on the list for bankruptcies the Church would be given (taking?) credit for having such a self-reliant people. It's easy to be free with someone else's money. (Speaking of those in debt.)

[mirkwood]

See, I wonder if that "hey- everything's great! Just give all your stuff away and you'll be just fine!" attitude is a little too prevalent in the LDSs of today...???


I think it is. All is well in Zion and if not the church will take care of me.

Two apostles had this to say:

James E. Faust<O:p</O:p
April Conference, 1986 <O:p</O:p
The Church cannot be expected to provide for every one of its millions of members in case of public or personal disaster.
<O:p</O:p


Boyd K. Packer from his book The Holy Temple:



Consider this comparison. In the welfare program we have been counseled for generations by the leaders of the Church to secure for ourselves a year's supply of food and clothing, and if possible fuel, and to be concerned for our shelter. This is a responsibility laid upon the individual memebers of the Church, upon each family. The commodities are to be stored at home. They are to be privately purchased, privately stored, and in time of crisis privately used.



It is not ever suggested that because we have bishop's storehouses there would be no need for individual families to maintain their year's supply. The counsel for the individual to protect himself and his family has never been withdrawn. It has been continually emphasized.

[Earthling]

See, I wonder if that "hey- everything's great! Just give all your stuff away and you'll be just fine!" attitude is a little too prevalent in the LDSs of today...???

I think you are right. I have a friend whose husband made a LOT of money the last five years . . . until he was laid off from his V.P. bank job. She told me they gave tens of thousands to the church over & above tithing as the Lord would take care of them. Problem is . . . they owed hundreds of thousands. Now he is out of work - in his 60's - and they are in trouble. I tried to tell her to get out of debt before they became big philantropists but she had the attitude the Lord would take care of it all. I'm pretty practical - it didn't make sense to me.

[arbilad]

Leve, I think we're talking about two different situations. In one, the saints coming to Utah had done all they could (in most cases) and the Lord made up the rest. In that situation, everyone's in the same boat.
I'm not talking about not caring what is happening with others. What I'm saying is that whether or not I share is not going to help those who haven't followed the Lord's counsel? How many other commandments to prepare for a specific time have been given so far in advance? Sure, having a food supply is just wise anytime, and many people have had use of it.But our prophets have prophesied of a specific time when it will be as necessary to us as the ark was to Noah. We've been given over 50 years to prepare. In many cases the people who followed the original counsel have passed on, never needing it. We're being spiritually prepared. Really, this is a test of what is more important to you, the Lord or mammon? If you answer wrong to that it doesn't matter how many people will share their food with you, you're toast.
In my mind, there are a few different situations. One is a poor bedraggled person with several kids shows up at your door begging for something to keep his kids from dying. That's going to really tug at the heart strings. I experienced something a bit like that recently. There was a majorly depressed man at a bus station with his small kids and pregnant wife. He had a sign begging for money. Looking at that cute little toddler and thinking of how I've struggled sometimes to provide for my family, I gave as much as I could. Another situation is someone comes to your house to take what you have. In my case, at least, that person will be met with maximum force and leave the rest up to the Lord. But that person will not get a crumb while my heart is still beating. Yet another situation is things go south, and your fellow ward member, who stored nothing, smugly comes over to discuss how much of your food storage they'll get because you "owe" them help. Any help they get will be dependent on that person helping me out with tasks around the house (weeding the garden, whatever).

[mirkwood]

Yet another situation is things go south, and your fellow ward member, who stored nothing, smugly comes over to discuss how much of your food storage they'll get because you "owe" them help. Any help they get will be dependent on that person helping me out with tasks around the house (weeding the garden, whatever).

This is a common mentality in our church these days.

[signseeker]

I tried to tell her to get out of debt before they became big philantropists but she had the attitude the Lord would take care of it all. I'm pretty practical - it didn't make sense to me.

This is very good. :l0:

[prairiemom]

I think that is why this discussion is always so fruitless: we are talking about several different scenarios. 1-the poor who really couldn't keep their heads above water 2-the "eat drink and be merry" Mormons who then expect a bailout (grasshoppers vs. ants) 3-the ignorant who never were taught to prepare
AND we're talking about different manifestations of faith: A-the faith that led you to obey Provident Living counsel B-the faith that you will have enough to share C-the faith that the Lord will complete what you lack
AND we're talking about different petitioners: δ-the bishop/sp/church leader who wants to see all his flock fed, Σ-the grasshopper who expects the ants to make up for his imprudence and φ-the truly needy and humble.

I'm sure I've left other considerations out: Size of your family and those already depending on your FS, wisdom and overall "distribution" plan of the bp/sp/church leaders, the nature of the crisis, size/nature of the threat/implied threat (i.e. guns: size and number on either side, threats to your personal salvation, threats to property, person, family, social standing, church standing, etc.), plan or provision for your stores to be replenished, etc. etc.

But you can see this provides an endless list of possibilities: 1Aδ, 2AΣ, 3BΩ, etc ad infinitum. So I really think it's wrong to ask "What would you do?" because there really is no clear cut answer. My answer: It depends.

[Charsee]

Prairiemom...well said...wish I had said that...:thumbup1:

[signseeker]

I think that is why this discussion is always so fruitless:

HUH?!?! You started the thread, woman! :banghead:


(I like hearing everyone's thoughts on this, by the way, and don't find it fruitless at all. :001_cool:)

[prairiemom]

The discussion I started was about church leaders who are actually (IOW, not a hypothetical) asking members to give out of their FS and the implied question was "is this appropriate?" When commenting on my original post that's what I talked about: how appropriate was it for this SP to ask members for their FS. But the discussion inevitably turned to "What should you do if asked to give your FS?" But that wasn't my question. :smilewinkgrin:

[Charsee]

Besides the food for the homeless our ward has a closet where food storage is kept in case of emergency. I guess that takes care of the "there is a secret cellar under every church with a year supply of food for the members" rumor...:willy_nilly:

[CurtisG]

The discussion I started was about church leaders who are actually (IOW, not a hypothetical) asking members to give out of their FS and the implied question was "is this appropriate?" When commenting on my original post that's what I talked about: how appropriate was it for this SP to ask members for their FS. But the discussion inevitably turned to "What should you do if asked to give your FS?" But that wasn't my question. :smilewinkgrin:
Maybe this is oversimplification due to my ignorance(of LDS) but my simple assumption is that if the Prophet has advised you to store food for your family, i'd need to hear something from the Prophet before i did anything else with the supplies.

[signseeker]

The discussion I started was about church leaders who are actually (IOW, not a hypothetical) asking members to give out of their FS and the implied question was "is this appropriate?" When commenting on my original post that's what I talked about: how appropriate was it for this SP to ask members for their FS. But the discussion inevitably turned to "What should you do if asked to give your FS?" But that wasn't my question. :smilewinkgrin:

Okay, so ... cutting to the chase ... the question is:

"Is it or is it not appropriate for a Stake President to ask members to give him their food storage?"

Like, is this in the realm of his calling? Does he have the "authority" to do this? Do we do what the man says, no matter what?

[DMGNUT]

Signseeker, thanks for putting the original question back into perspective. I even went back to Prairiemom's original question. She says Bishop as opposed to Stake President.
My first answer is no. But I also agree completely with Prairiemom when she said, "It depends".
In one of the memos I got from the Ward Canning Specialist... we're to try to set aside 1 years worth of food for 2 more people, over and above the number in our family. One of these "years worth of food" is for sharing with neighbors, and one is for the Bishop to distribute as he sees fit to unprepared members. But as for my own family's 1 years worth of food... no. As I understood it, the extra food for the 2 additional people was to be acquired only after you had the years worth of food for your family, already safely put away.
I'm all about sharing if moved by the Spirit to do so. But lets go back to the parable of the Ten Virgins. The unfaithful (unprepared) were left behind. I'm ok with that. We all have to die eventually, and I'm the steward of my family first, so I will see to my family's needs first. Sure I'll ease suffering when and where I can. But I can't save everyone... Jesus was the only one who could save everyone.
Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.

[prairiemom]

I guess that's part of the question--does your response depend on whether the request comes from the bp or sp?

My answer to this particular scenario: No, sorry. I don't think other resources have been exhausted. Regardless of the circumstances, I think dipping into others' FS should be a last resort measure.

[Buffie]

I sure agree. I shop at thrift stores, drive a 20 year old car, and put all available money into food storage. I'm not usually a Scrooge, but I've seen a lot of people get into debt to buy things they didn't need, buy huge houses they don't need, take lavish vacations, and I'm not willing to feed these idiots. The surplus I have comes from the choices I made about priorities. If TSHTF, the rich can eat their Lexus.