Would you stand in line?.....

[Noahs ARK]

I brought this over from the Haiti thread because I think Julie makes a really valid point. My sister and I were just talking about this on the phone last week!!

"What I have noticed in Haiti is the civil unrest. If you have your food and have managed to be comfortable, you had better head out of town with it or you will be killed for your goods. Or you had better be good at looking like you're suffering like the rest. If you have guns and such, how many lives are you willing to take to protect your stash? It looks like many of the people have turned into animals."

What will you do?

Will you pretend you have nothing and stand in long lines to get food & water being handed out, so that nobody suspects you have storage in your home?

If so, who will protect your home & storage while you're standing in line for 12 hours or more?

How do we pretend we have nothing and are suffering like the rest of the people, who really don't have storage?

[mirkwood]

I teach my ward and stake to be prepared so the whole neighborhood is in the same boat.

[Buffie]

I'll stand in line, all dirty and in ragged clothes, while my husband stays home with the guns. Actually, I'll probably sit in line.

When I see what's happening in Haiti, I can't help but wonder if Americans would act any better. Hope I never find out.

[signseeker]

I teach my ward and stake to be prepared so the whole neighborhood is in the same boat.


Okay, I've heard this pat answer twice now.

After you've taught them to be prepared, and they've given you the bird... then what?

[DMGNUT]

Mirk,
Like many, you go about teaching and coaching whom ever will listen. But I'm afraid it will ultimately be far too little, and far too late... I think this is even mentioned somewhere in the scriptures. Although we can make a difference in the lives of those who listen, I think your goal of total Ward, or even block-wide preparedness, might be overly optimistic. But still, we keep doing what we can.

Buffie and Noah's Ark,
I really don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but there's little to no hope of "getting out of town", especially considering their (the people of Haiti's) current circumstances. Even in the best of times, anyone who's properly prepared would not be able to take it all, without several trips.
And PLEASE, do not go out into the "fray", putting yourself at extreme risk, being subjected to brutal opportunists, or for that matter, subjecting yourself even to the public at large, in their state of panic and starvation.
This is a classic case of the drowning swimmer, pulling the would-be rescuer down with them. No need to go out in public at all, if your only reason is to let a vague "someone" see that you are as destitute as they...
Now... as for the "question"...
If you have guns and such, how many lives are you willing to take to protect your stash?
My gut response is... If this is "it", then, "I'll shoot as many people as it takes... especially in regards to looters... let the bodies pile up." :d0 (70):
Having said that though, I think that this is a localized event, should tell most people, that eventually help will come. So I don't really see myself needing a years worth of food to get through this... so, I would do my best to help whomever I could, as much as I could. I would try not to hold back, not even a little, because in my mind, this isn't the "end" as it were. Which is where we really will need to have our year supply.
That aside though... If I thought it absolutely necessary, I'd still shoot anyone who refused to play nice with others, or tried to take by force.

[Noahs ARK]

Mirk,
No need to go out in public at all, if your only reason is to let a vague "someone" see that you are as destitute as they...

Thank you. That's been weighing on my mind.

[arbilad]

What if there is no line? I mean, it doesn't take the total collapse of civilization for aid to be slow in coming or not come at all. What if there's a trucker's strike, for instance? There's going to be no food in the grocery stores, and you may very well be using your year's supply while everyone else is buying the last box of chow mein noodles.
Or what if, heaven forbid, there's an invasion on US soil? Most people think that there's no way that could happen, but it's quite possible. Truckers aren't going to try to truck food through a division of enemy tanks, and airlift of food only does so much.
In other words, people always expect that if something goes wrong, an outside organization or agency is always going to be there to help. And that's not necessarily the case.

[Noahs ARK]

What if there is no line? I mean, it doesn't take the total collapse of civilization for aid to be slow in coming or not come at all. What if there's a trucker's strike, for instance?

Another good point. Thanks.

[mirkwood]

Like many, you go about teaching and coaching whom ever will listen. But I'm afraid it will ultimately be far too little, and far too late... I think this is even mentioned somewhere in the scriptures. Although we can make a difference in the lives of those who listen, I think your goal of total Ward, or even block-wide preparedness, might be overly optimistic. But still, we keep doing what we can.




ktcottle can chime in on this with me. I am also speaking specifically to my own area. I believe he has had the same success as I have.

We have been highly successful in at least two wards of our stake, who fortunately have boundaries that touch, in getting the message out.

Before I started this calling, a survey was done of the ward. The averarge food supply in the home was two weeks. A year or so into my calling the average was 5 months.

There have been very few who are resistant to the message and fewer still who have done nothing. Some are better then others, but our wards and stake get it. It is a priority with the stake presidency and fortunately the counselor that I work with/answer to is a complete believer and squared away.

Am I finished with my ward. No, I still have many to teach and will start up my classes again shortly. The other four wards (ktcottles has it already) are starting to get the vision and we have high hopes that thier prep specialists will begin teaching in the homes as well.



As to areas out of my sphere of influence...I fear the worst. Charity most definitely has it's place. The spirit will dictate how/what/when.

[LEVE]

For those of us not in a heavy LDS populated area.. things are a whole lot different. Mrs. LEVE and I are the only members within about 7 miles; our Ward building is 18 miles away. I suspect that in the initial hours/days/weeks of such a problem we'll be on our own for a while.

Oh, years ago while living on Washington State's Olympic Peninsula we had a huge wind storm. There were trees blown over the highway and were piled 30' high for over 10 miles in any direction. Myself and many of the locals decided that we'd need to cut our way out. We formed work parties and those with chain saws were up on the top of the piles cutting the timber. Those with pickups were on the bottom dragging the cut tree lengths down off piles and to the sides the highway. After six days of cutting we were a a couple miles south, cutting toward the main highway. At about 1pm I was 25' up on top of a pile and heard other chainsaws cutting. The sound was coming toward me; the branches obscured any view of over a couple yards away.

Within about 30 minutes I saw a hand holding a chainsaw coming trough the tangled limbs. It was my Home Teacher (also the Bishop of the Branch). He'd spent the last several days cutting his way in from coming from the north. I only hope if I endure such a natural disaster again... I have such a Home Teacher, or I am such a home teacher.

During that week, our little community banded together... and no one ever shot anyone else. It wasn't all that bad a time. There was salmon in the bay... deer and bear and other little critters in the hills and lots of edible vegetation all around. We weren't going to starve. We were going to lose our fuel soon for the chainsaws and trucks. But we were anxious to have a way to get in and get out of our little community back to the world.

[Harm]

Mirk can you share more about your calling and your program to spread the message in your stake? We've paid a lot of lip service within my ward/stake but I haven't seen more than about twenty percent really making movement towards preparedness.

[Buffie]

arbilad, good post. In this modern world, with instant communication, we've become accustomed to "help coming". I remember the stories my grandmother told about what life was like in the South after the unCivil War. There was no help. The Yankees destroyed homes, crops, and people were left to make out the best they could. For my family, this meant eating what they could find in the forest--nuts, root plants. No "aid" ever came; somehow people put their homes and lives together unassisted. Of course they didn't have to bother with electricity and all the other great modern inventions.

[mirkwood]

Mirk can you share more about your calling and your program to spread the message in your stake? We've paid a lot of lip service within my ward/stake but I haven't seen more than about twenty percent really making movement towards preparedness.

I was called about three years ago as the Emergency Preparedness Specialist. I was asked by the bishop to share the information I had given he and his wife with the ward members indvidually. It resulted in the link to this lesson: http://www.rogmo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=205. I used to go into each members home and teach this one on one. My days off changed and it became harder to schedule this meeting. Now I teach groups of 6-8 couples once a month.

I was also asked to write an emergency plan for the ward.

I am also the Stake Welfare Specialist. The 2nd Counselor is the Bishop who fist called me to the prep calling. He and I are trying to motivate the prep specialists of the other wards to get into the homes and teach the information needed to their ward members, and to write an ward emergency plan. I am also working on the stake emergency plan, but I have kind of put that on hold waiting to see what the ward's do so I can implement them into the stake plan.

Any other questions?

[signseeker]

Any other questions?


Are you standing in the flipping line or not? :banghead:

[Noahs ARK]

For those of us not in a heavy LDS populated area.. things are a whole lot different. Mrs. LEVE and I are the only members within about 7 miles; our Ward building is 18 miles away. I suspect that in the initial hours/days/weeks of such a problem we'll be on our own for a while.

That's our situation, too. We're 20 miles from the church and nobody on our country road is LDS.

We live on a dead end street that ends up against the highway with 5 other homes. We have a steep ravine behind us that leads to the river and a cow pasture across from us. So a hungry mob would be able to access our homes from 4 different directions.

I'm hoping that all the families would get together to protect our country road if times got bad. I know all of the men have rifles.

One thing for sure - I don't want these people knowing about our food & water, so I figured if they had to stand in line for food that we probably should, too. :w00t:

[mirkwood]

Are you standing in the flipping line or not? :banghead:

Maybe.

[Noahs ARK]

Are you standing in the flipping line or not? :banghead:

:smilielol5:

Hey wait - I haven't seen your answer....did I miss it? Are you standing in line with me or what? :blink:

[waif69]

Maybe.

That is what is called a truly honest answer.

[Noahs ARK]

That is what is called a truly honest answer.

I guess it really does depend on the situation. I read that short story somebody posted here - the people got to stand in line to spend $50 at the grocery store. I guess that was the scenario I was picturing. Except the guy in the story DID get assaulted in the parking lot, iirc.

...and I think the Zombies did eventually arrive at his subdivision. :001_sconfused:

[signseeker]

That is what is called a truly honest answer.

Nah... he's waitin' on a reevulaytion. :l0 (32):

[mirkwood]

Maybe is my honest answer. There are many factors that would influence that decision. It would be made if that scenario played itself out.

[Noahs ARK]

Maybe is my honest answer. There are many factors that would influence that decision. It would be made if that scenario played itself out.

Fair enough! I agree. If gangs are out rioting & looting, I'm not stepping outside my home.

[Earthling]

After the Northridge earthquake people flocked to the stores. They stood in lines for many hours and of course the stores emptied out - nothing for 3-5 days after that could you buy. What is interesting is I heard of several LDS people who went and stood in these stupid lines even though they had supplies.

Why - to get more "just in case" and to be part of the excitement. I kid you not. Stay out of the stores and the public people! It won't be safe out there and no one is going to be taking an inventory anywhere of who showed up and who didn't. Just be careful of what your neighbors notice - what you say, etc - keep your mouth shut. That is who will count.

[Noahs ARK]

Just be careful of what your neighbors notice - what you say, etc - keep your mouth shut. That is who will count.

That's exactly what I was concerned about. Even tho there's only 6 homes on our little country road, EVERYONE knows everything going on.

So if 5 of the these neighbors are standing in line and I'm not, I figured it would get them all wondering why WE aren't in line.

Of course there's nothing that says we all have to stand in line at the same time, but let me tell ya - everyone on the road knows the moment you leave your driveway. :willy_nilly:

But I'm still not leaving my home if somebody's gonna mug me after I leave the store with my groceries. I wonder if Food Lion would care if I shopped with my pistol crossbow? :D

[mgriffith]

After the Northridge earthquake people flocked to the stores. They stood in lines for many hours and of course the stores emptied out - nothing for 3-5 days after that could you buy. What is interesting is I heard of several LDS people who went and stood in these stupid lines even though they had supplies.


I seen people standing in line for ice and pay $10 for one shovel full, or a several mile long line of cars going to the only gas station open (pumping gas out of the ground by hand) and charging $5 a gal. at a time when the normal price as $1 a gal. They couldn't pump it fast enough.


Just be careful of what your neighbors notice - what you say, etc - keep your mouth shut.

Excellent advise. You don't need to do much to make it look like your are no better off than anyone else. Standing in line trying to fake them out is not the way. Besides, as others have pointed it, it divides your group making everyone less secure.

Here's some pointers in case anyone is interested:

1. Don't drive your vehicles, or even start them up. Save them for when you'll really need them, like to escape. Modern cars (since around 1995) can't have the gas siphoned out of the tank. There are devices in place that prevent that so locking gas caps are a thing of the past. Don't waste your money. But the tank can still be punctured from the bottom and all the gas leaked out. About the only thing you can do to prevent this is lock them into a garage.

2. Don't have a generator running, especially at night with all the lights on. Your power will suddenly go out and when you get to the generator to see what happened, the wires and chain (if you thought to chain it down) will be cut and it will be gone. I know someone that lost two expensive generators that way, within one week.

3. Let your grass grow and flower garden weeds take over. You'll need the time to tend the vegetables anyway. You should pull up all the flowers and plant veggies, but then you'll need to guard them.

4. Make sure the neighbors see you during the day outside the house. Sit on the porch (guarding the lettuce), walk over and talk to them. Let them know you are still there, but no better off than they are. Don't walk over munching on beef jerky, but complain about the situation. See if you could help them in return for some added security or something you need. Make alliances.

5. Do all your cooking inside. All of it. A 20 pound tank of propane will last a long time with a small camp stove. If you have more than that, you will be set for a very long time. Don't let the neighbors see (or smell) you having a BBQ in the back yard unless you have enough for the uninvited guests.

6. Hang a clothes line, and put some clothes on there. For the younger crowd, that is a solar and wind powered clothes dryer. Even if you don't need it, at least appear that you do.

7. Don't worry too much about your personal appearance. You don't have to look slovenly, just don't look like you are well fed, clean, and got lots of sleep last night when it was hot and muggy.

8. If you have a wood stove for heating/cooking, be careful how you use it. Smoke coming from the chimney, and a nice warm glow from the windows will do lots to convince people that you have something they want. Don't bank the fire...it will cause lots and lots of smoke, let it burn out when you don't need it. Hopefully, your chimney top is way off the ground so any smoke and smell of smoke will drift a long way from your house before anyone notices it. If not, it will be easy to tell you got something. In the winter, this will be much worse. Don't burn wood unless you must, and then burn a hot fire which does not produce any smoke if you use nice dried wood, carefully and slowly piled on.

9. Security issues are another concern, but you don't need to have you house look like it's dilapidated and falling down, just that it should look no better than the rest of them. If there is an earthquake and your house just happens to be the only one that is still standing in your neighborhood, that's not your fault, but curious people will notice and come for a look see.

10. If you are the giving type, don't have them come to your house for help. An endless procession of people coming away with goodies will attract a lot of attention to people who have nothing better to do now, than to sit around and watch. Meet them someplace else, but don't drive there (see tip #1).

Mark

[LEVE]

Modern cars (since around 1995) can't have the gas siphoned out of the tank.Not always true... My daughter's 2001 Saturn just had 12 gal of fuel siphoned out last night when the car broke down and was left at a Wal*Mart parking lot. Last month I siphoned out the fuel from my wife's 2003 Buick Century to replace the fuel pump, and did the same on my 1999 Plymouth Voyager about 6 months ago.

The statement that you can't siphon out of a modern car is poppycock.


If you have a wood stove for heating/cooking...You can run the smoke through a water trap and that will help cool it and trap smoke particles. This will minimize your heat signature, as well as not sending out smoke signals. Also, a pellet stove with a solar/inverter/charger will provide heat with almost NO smoke. I lay in about 3 tons of pellets for the winter. It's even cheaper than the electric furnace costs and heats the house fine.

Here's a chance to go "a little green" and think about simple renewable energies. The ingenuity is up to you.

[mgriffith]

Not always true... My daughter's 2001 Saturn just had 12 gal of fuel siphoned out last night when the car broke down and was left at a Wal*Mart parking lot. Last month I siphoned out the fuel from my wife's 2003 Buick Century to replace the fuel pump, and did the same on my 1999 Plymouth Voyager about 6 months ago.


Hmmmm....I have tried this several times myself, and not been able to do so, even though I have been working on cars for 40 years. There is a ball check valve in the fuel filler now, at least on the cars I have tried, mostly GM. I'd like to know how you did it since this may be valuable information in the future. Even with a small fairly rigid hose, I could not get it past the check valve.

I replaced three fuel pumps over the past 10 years, and each time had to lower a nearly full tank of gas because I could not siphon it.

Mark

[LEVE]

I could not get it past the check valve.I used a 1/4" clear plastic line and just stuck it down the fuel input. When ever I hit a restriction I'd pull out the line and put a little bend in it to go through. It didn't take long to get it in the tank, but it did take a while to let the siphon suck out 12 gal of fuel.

There's an easier way when you're replacing a fuel pump for maintenance. Disconnect the fuel line from the injector fuel rail and put a long line from the fuel line into a gas can. Then jumper 12 volts to the proper fuel pump relay contact that feeds the fuel pump. That turns on the pump and it will do all the work for you....

I was too lazy to do that. I'm making up fuel line adapters and relay jumpers for each of my vehicles so I can do this with a minimum of fuss. I got that idea from a Washington State Trooper back in the 90's. He had a "T" on his fuel line. He could easily pump out a gallon of gas for stranded motorists.