Legislature OKs personal collection of rainwater

[cHeroKee]

Legislature OKs personal collection of rainwater (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9882184)


http://www.ksl.com/emedia/slc/1826/182656/18265685.jpg


March 3rd, 2010 @ 1:57pm


SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- The Utah Legislature has passed a bill that would permit the personal collection of rainwater.
The House unanimously approved the legislation on Wednesday. It has already cleared the Senate.
If signed by the governor the measure would reverse a decades-old prohibition on rainwater harvesting in the state.
Senate Bill 32 (http://le.utah.gov/%7E2010/htmdoc/sbillhtm/sb0032s01.htm) would permit the collection of no more than 2,500 gallons in a storage container.
If it becomes law Utahns wouldn't be able to just put out barrels in the backyard. The proposal requires registering with the state and buying a standardized container.
Sen. Scott Jenkins, a Plain City Republican, is sponsoring the bill.

[prairiemom]

And we call this a GOOD law? Tyranny is alive and flourishing in UT.

[hiccups]

It's illegal to collect rain water a lot of places. Does anyone know what the reasoning behind making it illegal is?

[mgriffith]

Permit the personal collection of water? Permit? You mean you have to get permission from the Utah state government to collect the rain water that falls on your land? Or on your roof? What if you have an outdoor pool? do you need a permit to allow the rain to fall in it?

This sounds pretty stupid, and against the Constitution.

Mark

[celebrate life]

It's illegal to collect rain water a lot of places. Does anyone know what the reasoning behind making it illegal is?

It has to do with water rights and affecting people "down stream". Often what we do affects other people even if we do not realize it.

This new law is good, perhaps not perfect, but good!

[celebrate life]

I need to qualify "good" from my last post in the context of the screwy way Utah has handled water rights from the get go. Other states have handled the whole thing better. They all have to consider people down stream though.

[celebrate life]

This sounds pretty stupid, and against the Constitution.

Mark

It would be against the Constitution if the Federal Government was involved. As it is, it is properly addressed at the state level. Of course, water laws that affect people in other states then becomes a federal issue like when a river flows through more than one state.

[JayE]

I'm looking forward to the bill that gives us a right to plant our own gardens, or mow our own lawns, live in our own house, breath air. Hopefully my garden tools will meet the standard requirements.

[4evermama]

:confused5:

Here in the Pac NW, we are encouraged to collect. In the summer months when rain is scarce, we water our gardens with collected H2O so as not to waste municpal. People consider it a "responsible" thing to do...as well as economical.

Stores even sell designer catch barrels for use in the front yards.:l0 (46):

[waif69]

I'm looking forward to the bill that gives us a right to plant our own gardens, or mow our own lawns, live in our own house, breath air. Hopefully my garden tools will meet the standard requirements.

I'm pretty sure there is a law not only allowing you to mow your lawn, but requires it. Wasn't it a year ago that a little old lady somewhere out West got arrested for not mowing her lawn?

[JayE]

I'm pretty sure there is a law not only allowing you to mow your lawn, but requires it. Wasn't it a year ago that a little old lady somewhere out West got arrested for not mowing her lawn?

That was for not watering her lawn, in a drought year no less.

But our little community does have the lawn police come around and measure your grass to see if it's too long. And if it is, you pay a fine. We have come to prefer 10,000 rules instead of 10 commandments.

[waif69]

This kind of encroachment is why I want at least 40 acres and berms to prevent people (busybodies) from knowing what I do on my property and in my house. I don't do anything wrong, but honestly, it is none of their danged business.

[celebrate life]

:confused5:

Here in the Pac NW, we are encouraged to collect. In the summer months when rain is scarce, we water our gardens with collected H2O so as not to waste municpal. People consider it a "responsible" thing to do...as well as economical.

Stores even sell designer catch barrels for use in the front yards.:l0 (46):

That is great! I imagine your state's water rights were structured differently than Utahs.

[ZDMZ]

I seem to recall hearing that some places do not allow you to shovel snow from your sidewalk into the street.
I think the point was that the snow fell on your property and the city did not want you to move it to the street where they would have to be responsible to take care of it.
Funny how on one side you can't keep the water and on the other you have to keep it.:lol:

[celebrate life]

Water has been and remains to be a cause for many a feud. Does anyone know the story behind the Utah law that prevented the collection of rain water in the first place?

[celebrate life]

I seem to recall hearing that some places do not allow you to shovel snow from your sidewalk into the street.
I think the point was that the snow fell on your property and the city did not want you to move it to the street where they would have to be responsible to take care of it.
Funny how on one side you can't keep the water and on the other you have to keep it.:lol:

Having sat on a city council, I can tell you that these are two completely different issues, one involving both your safety and your tax dollars.

[mgriffith]

Lucky for me, here in Missouri, I can collect all the rain that falls on my roof, which I do in a series of rain barrels. My stored water is for the garden since we get charged for sewage treatment for the amount of water we use from the tap, whether is goes on the ground or into the sewer. So there are weird laws all over.

Mark

[signseeker]

I don't know how the prohibition on rainwater got started, but maybe it had to do with people's wells. The water table might've got so low that the wells were not working right? Did the pioneers mainly work off wells?

Maybe people started covering vast acreages with tarps and it got really out of hand...? Causing dust storms and things...

Water has caused fights and deaths around here, that's for sure.

[Buffie]

The law saying you don't own the rain that falls on your property would send me out of Utah so fast I'd dodge the drops. That's the craziest thing I've ever heard of. Are you allowed to own the sunlight that shines on your house? How about the wind? Is the oxygen in the air yours, or the state's?

[celebrate life]

You know, part of the reason I think this is a good law is because now I CAN collect rainwater. Before this law was enacted, I couldn't. A few years back we bought some rain barrels only to find out after that the law prohibited me from collecting rain water. I was angry about it. But I did not move. There are too many other wonderful things about being here and there are no perfect places to live. Further, rather than whine and complain, there is the option to try to understand the reasons for the law and to change it.

Thanks to Senator Scott Jenkins, who sponsored it and the other legislators who voted for it, I now CAN collect rainwater. Being a legislator is really a thankless job for the most part. Here, we are moved in the right direction and instead of gratitude, there is complaint because it is not a perfect law. Note that all but three of our legislators who voted, voted for this bill. I would say that is a pretty good indication that our legislators agree with you and see the foolishness in prohibiting the collection. They also are wise enough to move forward with caution.

One of the best things we can do to continue to move in the right direction is to start collecting rainwater, according to this law, including registering with the state and buying the standardized container. When they see that this is something people really want the freedom to do and will do it and they can measure the impact because of the registrations, then they may see that the impact is or is not a problem. If it is not, then there would be the data to support unmonitored collection, if it is, perhaps we would all be surprised to see the things that are not readily seen. Impact is always considered when passing a law. Data or making it measurable can be the key to change.

I see this as a step to change in the right direction. Those who sit around waiting for all or nothing, usually get nothing. Those who are willing to come to the table and find a workable solution to make a step in the right direction will usually move forward and with diligence continue in those steps.

[JayE]

I have a hard time believeing that collecting rain water on one's own property could ever affect the amount of water available to someone else downstream. But, besides that, the more important issue is the matter of personal freedom. Government has become WAY too intrusive in our personal freedoms. If I want to collect rainwater on my property, that is nobody's business but mine. It doesn't adversly affect anyone else. And how I do it, how I store it is my business alone.

If you were doing it on public land, or someone else's land, then I see the problem. But, I see any law that prohibits, or regulates the collection of rainwater on a person's own property as a bad law. If this new law removes the restriction, then that is good, but if it still requires you to register and only use approved containers, then that is still government control run amock. It is akin to the government telling me what I am allowed to eat in my own house and sending the vegetable police around to make sure I ate enough vegetables, or pay a fine. Personal freedoms have become meaningless to so many law makers.

[Babbi-Dan]

What constitutes the "standardized container" that you will be forced to purchase from the state should you decide you want to capture the rain water?

[celebrate life]

What constitutes the "standardized container" that you will be forced to purchase from the state should you decide you want to capture the rain water?

Great question! I am glad you asked because I have misunderstood this. Looking at the law, there is no requirement to buy a standardized container from the state. The newspaper is misleading here. You can store the water in an underground storage container that has been installed according to building codes which is meant to protect primary water sources so that there is not contamination in our culinary water systems. Or you can store the water in water barrels that are no bigger than 100 gallons. This water cannot be transported off of your property.

[celebrate life]

I have a hard time believeing that collecting rain water on one's own property could ever affect the amount of water available to someone else downstream. But, besides that, the more important issue is the matter of personal freedom. Government has become WAY too intrusive in our personal freedoms. If I want to collect rainwater on my property, that is nobody's business but mine. It doesn't adversly affect anyone else. And how I do it, how I store it is my business alone.

Really, this entire thing comes down to water rights. The way they are handled in the East is different than they are handled in the West. Because we live in the desert, there is a scarce resource of water. Utah simply contained much more cultivable land than could be watered from the incoming mountain streams, unlike the East who has many more sources of water.

The east coast uses riparian water rights which means that they own the water that falls on their property.

In the west, and here in Utah, we operate under a principle of prior appropriation water rights. What this means is, those who first made beneficial use of water should be entitled to continued use in preference to those who came later.

If you have used the water, you have a prior right to the use of that water even if it fell on someone else's property and comes down stream to you. Or in other words, "This means those holding water rights with the earliest priority dates, and who have continued beneficial use of the water, have the right to water from a certain source before others with water rights having later priority dates."

This law that was just enacted created an exemption to that under very specific circumstances, recognizing that when water falls on the lawn some of it permeates the ground it is on. Some of it evaporates and some of it is run off. This law now allows a property owner to capture and store a limited amount of rain water to be used beneficially on that property. Any stored water cannot be transported off that property for it is meant for beneficial use on the parcel in which it is captured and stored, just as if it fell there and permeated the ground.



If you were doing it on public land, or someone else's land, then I see the problem. But, I see any law that prohibits, or regulates the collection of rainwater on a person's own property as a bad law. If this new law removes the restriction, then that is good, but if it still requires you to register and only use approved containers, then that is still government control run amock. It is akin to the government telling me what I am allowed to eat in my own house and sending the vegetable police around to make sure I ate enough vegetables, or pay a fine. Personal freedoms have become meaningless to so many law makers.

This law is not meant to change existing prior appropriation laws, but it does give an exemption under these limited circumstances. It is an effort to protect the rights of those who came first balanced with the rights of property owners. This is the reason for the regulating the amount and requiring registration with the state. The approved containers allows for a wide margin of containers limited basically to size and allowing for some safety provisions. (See my previous post).

Truly, this is a good law. I don't see it as government run amock. It is certainly a step in the right direction.

[signseeker]

Does this bill also have to do with limiting fishermen's access to streams on private property? I tell ya, water law is a hot topic. Aren't there some instances of riparian rights in Utah? Seems like some of the properties we looked at around the head of the Provo River, etc. claimed riparian rights -- I could be wrong. Then you throw in different laws with regard to Tribal Lands and you really need to know what you're doing...

These laws go back to the pioneer days, I'm sure... trying to figure out how to be fair with the Indians that were in Utah before the Mormons, instead of just mowing them over and saying, "We own it all, now."

[sarge712]

That's so nice that they "let" you have your rainwater.

[celebrate life]

Does this bill also have to do with limiting fishermen's access to streams on private property? I tell ya, water law is a hot topic. Aren't there some instances of riparian rights in Utah? Seems like some of the properties we looked at around the head of the Provo River, etc. claimed riparian rights -- I could be wrong. Then you throw in different laws with regard to Tribal Lands and you really need to know what you're doing...

These laws go back to the pioneer days, I'm sure... trying to figure out how to be fair with the Indians that were in Utah before the Mormons, instead of just mowing them over and saying, "We own it all, now."

No, this bill does not have to do with fishermen's access to streams on private property. That is another bill I think. As far as some instances of riparian rights in Utah, I don't know, but I would be surprised if there was. I do know that the legislators proceeded with caution and carefully worded this bill so as to not change the law to allow riparian rights.

These laws do go back to the pioneers. In fact, they are the ones who established the principle of prior appropriation rights, not law makers who had no regard for personal freedom. The first water allocation system by "county courts" was established in 1852.

[celebrate life]

Water Right Information

Revised: July 14, 2005

The Division of Water Rights is the state agency that regulates the appropriation and distribution of water in the state of Utah. It is an office of public record for information pertaining to water rights, excepting that related to water right ownership. The office of public record for water right ownership is the county recorder?s office for the county(ies) in which the water is diverted. All official and publicly accessible water right records are available in the Salt Lake City office or from this site. Region Offices outside Salt Lake City will also have copies of most records for the areas they administer.

The Utah pioneers, in the late 1840's, were the first Anglo-Saxons to practice irrigation on an extensive scale in the United States. Being a desert, Utah contained much more cultivable land than could be watered from the incoming mountain streams. The principle was established that those who first made beneficial use of water should be entitled to continued use in preference to those who came later. This fundamental principal was later sanctioned in law, and is known as the Doctrine of Prior Appropriation. This means those holding water rights with the earliest priority dates, and who have continued beneficial use of the water, have the right to water from a certain source before others with water rights having later priority dates.

In the early territorial days, rights to the use of public streams of water were acquired by physical diversion and application of water to beneficial use, or by legislative grant. A "county courts" water allocation system was enacted in 1852 and was in effect until 1880 when it was replaced by a statute providing for county water commissioners.

The Office of the State Engineer was created in 1897. The State Engineer is the chief water rights administrative officer. A complete "water code" was enacted in 1903 and was revised and reenacted in 1919. This law, with succeeding complete reenactments and amendments is presently in force mostly as Utah Code, Title 73. In 1963 the name of the Office of the State Engineer was changed to the Division of Water Rights with the State Engineer designated as the Director, but the public sometimes still refers to the Division as the State Engineer's Office.

All waters in Utah are public property. A ?water right? is a right to divert (remove from its natural source) and beneficially use water. The defining elements of a typical water right will include:

A defined nature and extent of beneficial use;
A priority date;
A defined quantity of water allowed for diversion by flow rate (cfs) and/or by volume (acre-feet);
A specified point of diversion and source of water;
A specified place of beneficial use.
Rights for water diversion and use established prior to 1903 for surface water or prior to1935 for ground water can be established by filing a ?diligence claim? with the Division. Such claims are subject to public notice and judicial review and may be barred by court decree in some areas of the state.

All other rights to the use of water in the State of Utah must be established through the appropriation process administered by the Division of Water Rights. The steps to this process for an ?Application to Appropriate Water? are as follows:

An Application to Appropriate Water is filed with the Division.
The application is advertised and protests may be received and a hearing may be held.
The State Engineer renders a decision on the application based upon principles established in statute and by prior court decisions.
If the application is approved, the applicant is allowed a set period of time within which to develop the proposed diversion and use water. When the diversion and use are fully developed, the applicant retains the services of a professional engineer or land surveyor who files ?proof? documentation with the Division showing the details of the development.
Upon verification of acceptably complete proof documentation, the State Engineer issues a Certificate of Appropriation, thus ?perfecting? the water right.
Many areas of the state are administratively ?closed? to new appropriations of water. In those areas, new diversions and uses of water are established by the modification of existing water rights. Such modifications are accomplished by the filing of ?change applications.? These applications are filed and processed in a manner very similar to that described above for Applications to Appropriate Water.

Water appropriation issues in specific geographic areas of the state are often administered using policies and guidelines designed to address local conditions. These policies and guidelines are generally developed for all or part of a defined Drainage Basin.

http://www.waterrights.utah.gov/wrinfo/default.asp