Having Electric Power After TEOTWAWKI

[mgriffith]

I have thought about creating this thread for some time, and about what I would put in it. Because this is a complex subject, I thought I would start by just relaying my initial thoughts on this matter.

A little background. I have been a gadget freak (if you can call it that) ever since I was a kid. I got my first ham license waaaaay back in the late 1960's, and I designed and built much of my own equipment. I since graduated to computers and have spent the last 30 years working in that industry, and even taught electronics and computer repair at a junior college. So, I guess I know a fair amount about electricity and electric gadgets.

I don't know about you, but I don't intend to live without electricity after the stuff hits the fan. Going back to candles or kerosene lamps and doing without all the advantages of computer technology would be like saying we should just forget all the advancements made in medicine and go back to potions made from berries, poultices from tree bark, and bleeding to remove bad humors in the blood.

Part of my survival gear is my multi-use cell phone, my laptop, and a host of other electric appliances like LED lamps, radios, fans, and whatnot. All of these will need power, and since after "the event" (whatever that will be), we probably won't be able to plug into a wall socket, we will have to find other methods.

Generating electricity is actually pretty easy to do, and there are a number of methods to use. I have lots and lots of links to lots of different ideas about alternative electric power, some better than others. The four basic methods are:


Moving water
Solar panels
Wind power
Other mechanical means

As a rule, moving water is the easiest, the most powerful and reliable. There are sites in Europe that have been using water power for over 1000 years....first to grind grain, and now to generate electricity. If you have at your home or survival retreat a flowing stream of any decent size, you can generate electricity 24 hours a day all year long (except if it freezes).

Solar panels are a little more expensive, they take up a lot of space, and of course only work when the Sun is shining. Many parts of the country (USA) are not very good for solar power as they don't get much sunlight over the entire year. To see an approximation of how much power you may generate for your area, check out this site: http://www.freesunpower.com/radiation.php

Wind power is probably the most difficult power device to use, and the least likely to generate reliable power. There is a lot of work involved with getting the right generator, blades, hubs, tower, position, and so forth, and then the wind can be very variable to where one hour you are generating nothing, to the next hour your wind turbine is being torn to pieces by the wind. It can also be very noisy and will easily attract all sorts of attention, most of it bad (angry neighbors or raiders seeing it and coming for a look). Too see if your area might be useful for wind power, see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Wind_Resources_and_Transmission _Lines_map.jpg

Other mechanical means would be using gasoline motor powered generators, or human powered. Gas power will be short-lived when the schumer hits, and human power is, well, hard on the body.

There are a few things to think about in a TEOTWAWKI scenario.

You will not be able to generate the amount of power you will want. Generating electricity take a lot of power. Most of us older folks can remember the little 6 volt generators we had on our bikes that we could power a headlight with. If you used these, you will also remember that it took a surprising amount of effort and unless you were going like a bat out of hell, you couldn't see anything. Water power has the capability to provide good amounts of power, but most of us will not have a stream of sufficient size, flow, and drop, to do much more than power battery chargers. To do more will require lots of money and engineering much like a major power plant.

Solar panels are nice because they are portable, but even with five or six, 15 watt panels and full sunlight, you will only be able to generate enough power to run one 50 watt light bulb. Wow. The same applies to most wind turbines in a decent breeze.

So, basically, without a lot of money and engineering, you can fairly easily generate enough power to charge batteries, and that is the key. To offset the lack of power at night for solar panels, and the variability of wind power, and the impracticality of large scale water power, your primary goal will be to charge batteries which can then be used during non-charge periods, and to provide more power for short periods of time than can be provided by the generating method, as long as your demands are not great.

For example, you pull power directly from batteries to power an LED light at night, or run your laptop for short periods, a radio, even a small TV, or a fan to keep you cool on hot summer nights. The batteries are then charged during the day with solar panels, or wind power when available, or by your water power generating device. If you don't use too much energy, you will have what you need when you need it. If you use rechargeable batteries in all your electronic devices, you will be able to keep using them as well, so there is no need to stock up on hundreds of AA or AAA batteries.

This subject has all sorts of possibilities, and I have looked into most of them at one time or another. I will make more posts as time goes on, and I will answer any questions anyone would like to post. As I said, I will not be going without electric power in the future, and there is no need for anyone else to do the same.

I hope this helps.

/\/\ark

[LoudmouthMormon]

Good post. We have a few solar powered battery chargers for our AA and AAA needs. I think we're set for LED head lamps and radios and walkie-talkies. We've got a few hand-crank items like lanterns and multi-band radios too.

We don't get too much sun, but even a cloudy day will get some juice to the batteries. And since an LED head lamp will go for days/weeks on one set of batteries, it's plenty of time to charge the spare set.

A generator is on our list to run our well pump, but I'm thinking a good old hand pump might be a better option. I can probably give up electricity more easily than others.

LM

[signseeker]

This is a great thread! Staying tuned.

[Buffie]

Thanks, mgriffith. Of course I don't understand most of it and my idea of recharging batteries is going to Dollar Tree and buying more. But I'm certainly ready to learn. I've had enough experiences with brief to moderate power outages to convince me I don't belong in the eighteenth century. However, I do have my great-grandmother's curling iron, which is shaped very much like a modern one but slender enough to go down the chimney of a kerosene lamp for heating. Okay, if TEOTWAWKI comes at least my hair will look good.

[Baconator]

You're right about keeping expectations within reason, Mark. I have a small GoBe power pack, but I started thinking about power foraging as well. The local NAPA auto two blocks away carries AGM batteries, voltage regulators and inverters up to 3000 watts (Thank you hybrid cars) and my neighbor has 8 large grid-tied solar panels on his house. He plans on going to his family's farm if something drastic happens and said if it gets that bad, I can use his solar setup. Preparedness can include preparing to kluge something together if necessary.

[mgriffith]

As I said, hydro power is probably the easiest and most reliable form of generating electricity. There are tons of sites on the internet, just Google "micro-hydro" to see what is available for the average person.

Hydro power is determined by the head (height of the drop) and the flow rate. Obviously, the more of either the better it is. There is more to the calculations, but this is basically it. This is a good site that discusses water wheels and power. http://permaculturewest.org.au/ipc6/ch08/shannon/index.html

The easiest hydro power setup one could build uses a good head and flow rate and pipes the flow into a water wheel driving a automotive type alternator, or a special permanent magnet generator. This is a good site that give the basics. http://homepower.com/basics/hydro/

Here is another with lots of good links. http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Hydro/hydro.htm

And yet another good one. http://www.microhydropower.com/

The pelton wheel turbines are very efficient, but require some accurately sized jets which are correctly aimed. With this setup, you can have a very highly efficient setup, with 80% or more efficiency. The turbines come sized to charge 12/24/48 volt systems, which is ideal for batteries.

If you visit all these sites, you'll notice there are lots of different applications that can fit whatever your environment presents. Buying one of the turbines, while they are not cheap, will be your best method unless you are VERY good with your hands and have lots of time to experiment. If you have a running stream, or a pond with a good inflow, and enough head (many of these will require no more than 3 or 4 feet of head), you can generate power. Not much, but it can be done. Of course, the more head and flow, the more power, and the greater the expense too.

Next, I'll go into wind power.

/\/\ark

[LoudmouthMormon]

I've been interested in wind ever since I found a weather station within a mile of my house hooked into the internet, that shows this area has maybe 5-7mpg wind about half of every day, pretty much year round, except when it's stronger wind.

Someone 5 mi away from us put up a huge turbine in the last few months - it looks more like a power company thing than a private landowner thing - but it's been turning maybe 80% of the time we've passed it in the car.

LM

[Noahs ARK]

We're hopefully getting a new deck in the Fall. I want a covered deck so I can sit outside during the rain.

Instead of metal roofing as the cover (which would match the house), we're thinking of using solar panels.

I'm still clueless about how all this works, but figure they'll explain it all to me when they install them or when they come to give me an estimate.

These ----> ttp://www.premierpower.com/solar_energy_residential/solar_panel_patio_cover.php (http://www.premierpower.com/solar_energy_residential/solar_panel_patio_cover.php)

[thermocouple]

I've been interested in wind ever since I found a weather station within a mile of my house hooked into the internet, that shows this area has maybe 5-7mpg wind about half of every day, pretty much year round, except when it's stronger wind.

Someone 5 mi away from us put up a huge turbine in the last few months - it looks more like a power company thing than a private landowner thing - but it's been turning maybe 80% of the time we've passed it in the car.

LM
Big problem I see with wind is that your turbine is basically going to be a beacon. Probably the least discreet way to generate power. No big deal when things are good, but if this is an emergency retreat, seems to me that any place with a wind turbine is going to be ripe for the picking.

[mgriffith]

Big problem I see with wind is that your turbine is basically going to be a beacon. Probably the least discreet way to generate power. No big deal when things are good, but if this is an emergency retreat, seems to me that any place with a wind turbine is going to be ripe for the picking.

Not only the sight, but the sound. Wind turbines can generate a lot of noise which can be heard from a distance. Those slow moving turbines we see out on the plains are mechanically braked to prevent them from going to fast. They may look like they are turning slowly but it's the speed of the blade tips that is the problem. They get going too fast and they can reach supersonic speeds and cause a spectacular self-destruction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaVyIYotTdI

[signseeker]

So there's no "family-sized" windmill possibility? It has to be huge for the idea to work?

[mgriffith]

So there's no "family-sized" windmill possibility? It has to be huge for the idea to work?

When I get back from lunch I'll post some more info on wind power. But the basics are still the same....if you can't control the speed, it will self-destruct in a spectacular way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5cis2JAkw&feature=related

[caml]

I love those video clips of the wind turbines "exploding". A farm up the way had a large turbine. One day something went wrong. They never did find the third blade, and they are seriously huge. :blink:
It makes me a little scared to think of what can happen if everything isn't in good repair.

[mgriffith]

Wind power is probably the most difficult to setup, and maintain out of the other methods I have mentioned.

There are three major concerns:

1. Getting the right generator and blades
2. Designing a furling/braking system
3. Regulating the electric flow

Here's a good site that explains much about wind power.

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind_tips.html

There are a great many web sites that have all sorts of information concerning wind turbine systems. A commercially available system for home use would cost somewhere in the order of $400.00 to a couple thousand, depending on generating capacity and other considerations. Here's an example of a lower-end 12 volt system that can be bought. http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=585

Marine dealers have a number of wind turbines designed to be mounted on boats (yachts) which help provide some of the necessary power, but they can be expensive because they are selling to the yachting crowd, which tend to have a lot of money. http://www.alpinesurvival.com/air-marine-wind-turbine.html

A basic wind turbine system will normally start to rotate when the wind speeds get up to 5 MPH or so, and produce usable power at 8-9 MPH or higher. In many areas of the country, steady wind speeds like this are rare. Also, most wind turbines have to be placed 30 feet or more above the ground away from obstructions such as trees or buildings, so unless you live in the open country, you may not have good conditions for wind power. In my area, winds are variable, but there is normally enough to spin a wind turbine at least half of the days during any given month.

Furling systems are necessary since there will be occasions where the wind just gets too strong for your turbine (thunderstorms) and you have to prevent it from spinning out of control (see previous posts of turbines blowing up). Automated furling systems can be as simple as a spring loaded vane arm that when the wind reaches enough force it causes the vane to fold over, turning the blades out of the wind. Another would be a system where an automated switch is thrown to reverse the electric flow to the turbine, turning it into a motor, and using electric force to slow the rotation. This can cause the turbine to burn up if not properly designed. Mechanical braking is used on the higher end systems.....or you can just take the turbine down before the winds get too bad, which can be extremely dangerous, or deadly.

If you are using your turbine to charge batteries, then a dump system needs to be installed to keep the turbine from overcharging and destroying the batteries. Wind turbines generate as long as they are turning. If the batteries are full, you can't just switch them out of the circuit, or the turbine will have no load and will quickly spin out of control, so you will need to provide a dump load....like a good size electric heater, to absorb the generated power.

Given all these conditions, if you have a good site, and design the system properly, wind turbines can generate power on a fairly continuous basis, day and night. If you don't live near a good flowing stream, and don't have lots of sunlit days in your area, a wind turbine may be the only choice you have. My personal opinion is they are a lot of work for what you get. Notice that even the $1000.00 systems are only rated at a maximum 400 watts of power, which for a 12 volt system, is about half the power that your car alternator produces. Unless I lived in an ideal location, I would not want to rely upon wind power as my primary source.

And, has has already been mentioned, that tower sticking up with a turbine on it will attract the possibly unwanted attention of dubious people.

Next, I'll discuss solar panels. I'm a little surprised that more questions are not being raised. I'm either doing a great job of explaining this stuff, or I'm talking over everyone's head, or no one really cares.

/\/\ark

[LoudmouthMormon]

I care! I care! :001_sbiggrin:


If you are using your turbine to charge batteries, then a dump system needs to be installed to keep the turbine from overcharging and destroying the batteries.What else would you do with the power? Back in the '80's, there was a commercial about wiring your turbine into the grid, and the power company had to buy the surplus energy from you. Was/is that true?


If the batteries are full, you can't just switch them out of the circuit, or the turbine will have no load and will quickly spin out of controlCouldn't a braking system handle that?

LM

[mgriffith]

Free power from solar panels has been the goal of energy systems for decades. It all seems so easy....cover the roof of your house with solar panels, and sit back and enjoy free energy for the rest of your life.

Not so fast, ya'll.

Obviously, solar panels can only generate power during the day, so during around half the day you will be powerless. Also, the more cloud cover the less power. And then, of course, there is the weather, rainy days, snow, etc. All these conspire to deny you your free energy systems. Alas, nothing is perfect.

However, out of the other power generating systems I have discussed so far, solar panels are the cheapest and easiest to install and use. Maintenance is practically zero, and as long as the sun shines, it will produce usable power without too much fuss.

But, your expectations have to be realistic. You won't be able to power your modern home with all your appliances on a solar system unless you have an acre of panels using special mounts that follow the Sun, and a battery bank that could power the Titanic. (Well, maybe somewhat less, but you get the idea)

Since we are talking about using these power systems to charge batteries, solar panels can be ideal. Common battery charger you buy from any car parts store will provide power at 12 volts (normal automotive voltages) from 3 Amps to as high as 16 Amps or more as the price determines. A 3 Amp charger can fully charge a dead normally sized car battery in a couple days.....6 Amps not quite twice as fast, 12 amps, nearly four times faster, etc. The larger the battery the longer it takes to fully charge it.

A 100 watt solar panel will produce about 8 Amps at 12 volts during a bright sunny day with direct sunlight on the panel, and you would still expect that panel to charge a normally sized car battery in about two days (24 hours) during the summer, since full sunlight would only be available for about 10-12 hours each day.

So if you spent two days of full sunlight charging that car battery, and then on a hot summer night had a fan running all night to keep you cool, you might bring that battery down to 50% of it's maximum charge, which would now require another day, or more, to fully charge it again. That's not much power for the $600 or more that you paid for that one panel.

A similarly sized micro-hydro generator could do that everyday, all day, since it never stops producing power. See what I mean?

Of course, you could install 10 of those 100 watt solar panels on your roof, and charge the battery 10 times faster....and spend $6,000 on the system.

The GoBe power panel Baconator mentioned generates .7 Amps. Yes, 7/10 of an Amp. It would take days and days and days to charge a standard size car battery, if it could be done at all. It is good for charging a cell phone, or a small flashlight, or a small laptop, but not much else. But it's better than no power at all. I don't want to diminish what Baconator is doing, but you must be realistic in your expectations.

To be certain, a solar panel setup is the easiest for most people to do, does not require a lot of expertise or skills, and will be reliable as long as the Sun doesn't go out.

The next post will discuss charging batteries, which is the key for each of the methods I have discussed. I say this because in all cases I have discussed, unless you are prepared to spend a lot of money, you will not be able to generate the amount of power you will need. Even with a 24/7 generating system like hydro power, you would have to size the system several times larger than the normal power requirements of your home to be able to cover the demands of greater than normal loads. Yes, you could sell the excess power back to the power company, but in a TEOTWAWKI situation, there won't be a power company.

/\/\ark

[mgriffith]

I care! I care! :001_sbiggrin:

What else would you do with the power? Back in the '80's, there was a commercial about wiring your turbine into the grid, and the power company had to buy the surplus energy from you. Was/is that true?

Couldn't a braking system handle that?

LM

Yes, you can sell excess power back to the power company. But with a wind turbine the size of what most homeowners could afford, or want to deal with, it would be a trickle of power that they would laugh at. :yesnod:

A braking system can handle it, but mechanical systems are expensive and difficult to size correctly. Let's say you somehow installed a car brake rotor on your wind turbine hub. You could use a hydraulic system to brake the rotor, but how would you manage it? Electric brakes can work, but again, how would you control it? You'd have to rig up some sort of sensors to detect the rotor speed and then apply just enough braking force to slow down the hub, adjusting the braking pressure as the rotor speeds up and slows down. This is a complex system for a home wind turbine. Some of the more expensive systems have internal braking or furling systems, but then you pay for it.

Many of the commercially available system use flexible blades that twist as the wind speed grows applying less and less force, or the use the rotor vane to turn the blades away from the wind. In any case, you have to have some system to control the turbine or it will most assuredly self-destruct the first time a big thunderstorm comes through. I don't have a wind turbine running right now, and that is one of the reasons. But since I'm working from home nearly all the time, and in a TEOTWAWKI situation, I'll be home all the time, I just might put one up and control it by having a tower that can be folded over and the turbine brought to the ground if I think too much wind is coming.

/\/\ark

[althor]

The wind turbines we put up come with brakes and variable pitch blades. They're probably out of reach for most of us as they run about $1M+ each... but they are rated at just over 2.1 MW, so plenty of power!

I'm stretching the truth just a little. We developed the project for about 8 years getting permits, land leases, and a power purchase agreement and getting a buyer to finance it. We eventually did and were able to get the contract to design and build 7 miles of 115 kV transmission line and the 35 kV collector system. Maybe you've seen it, there are I think 57 turbines just off I-80 near Bridger WY. They're definitely big with a hub height of about 90m. I'm still upset that I didn't get to climb to the top of one. Maybe with the next project!

[signseeker]

I'm a little surprised that more questions are not being raised. I'm either doing a great job of explaining this stuff, or I'm talking over everyone's head, or no one really cares.

/\/\ark


Or, we're all deep into the links you provided and linking to more links... and more links.... :117:

[thomasusa]

You are looking for the wrong type of wind turbine.
Search for VAWT (Vertical Axis Wind Turbine) on YouTube.
My area is not typically windy or I would have found one of these a long time ago.

[signseeker]

What are some possible sources for DC motors? Older, big computer equipment... treadmills... ??

[KF7EEC]

treadmills... ??

The side walk? :l0 (51):

[signseeker]

:glare: What do you mean? Like, old treadmills are sitting on the sidewalk for the garbage man?

[mgriffith]

What are some possible sources for DC motors? Older, big computer equipment... treadmills... ??

There is a lot of science, thought, and experimentation that can go into choosing the right kind of generator for your wind or hydro project.

Basically, any motor can become a generator by turning the motor by mechanical means at a rotation faster than the motor itself would produce at the same voltage. You could even take the motor out of a child's toy, like a battery powered car, and spin the motor fast enough to generate enough power to light an LED lamp.

One of the most popular DC motors used in wind turbines is an Ametek. Here is a good link http://www.tlgwindpower.com/ametek.htm

I have one of these to use in my wind power project. They are very sturdy and can generator power at low rotation speeds. For example, the Ametek KC8079F7 will turn at 550 rpm at 20 Volts DC. So if you turn it as a somewhat slower speed, it will produce 12 volts of power. These motors and those like them are a good choice for a wind turbine since they can produce power at relatively slow speeds.

On the other hand, a car type alternator normally runs at twice the engine speed or higher, so at a normal cruising speed of 2500 RPM, the alternator is turning at 5000 RPM or more. This is not workable in a wind turbine, but might be usable in a hydro power setup, especially if gearing or pulleys are used to rotate the alternator faster.

Alternators generally are easier to turn than the permanent magnet DC motors, which one of the reasons generators were dropped from use in automobiles in the early 1960's in favor of alternators. Take one of those Ametek motors and apply some power to it while you are holding on to the shaft, and it will try to turn your arm off (if you can grip tight enough!). Take a car alternator and remove the belt and start the car (or just turn on the ignition on some cars), then try to turn the alternator by hand. It will be hard to do, but a little easier. There is a voltage regulator connected to the exciting coil on an alternator which increases the voltage as more charge is needed for the batteries. As the battery is charged, this voltage drops to where there is little energy needed to keep the batteries in charge, and little engine power required to do it.

Also alternators produce AC power so they have to have the power converted to DC for charging batteries, which is normally done today with internal rectifiers. A good link for alternators is http://www.google.com/products?q=alternator+self-exciting&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=dc_LS7v_ApD09QTGiJXEBA&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CBwQrQQwAg These you just connect to the battery and start turning them. When they get up enough speed (called the cut-in speed) they will starting charging. There is nothing more to do. The self-exciting alternators do away with the requirement for an external voltage regulator and are self exciting and self-regulating, making them better suited for power applications.

There are lots of custom made alternators for wind power applications which you can find if you look at enough web links. The two I have mentioned are what I consider to be the best ones. eBay is a great place to find either of these.

There is still more to learn, though, regarding using these generating methods to charge batteries. For instance, the Ametek KC8079F7 will produce 20 VDC @ 550 RPM. That is too much to charge a battery, and the faster you turn it, the higher the voltage goes, while the alternators I mentioned take care of this themselves.

So you see there is a lot to determining what is the best power generating system for your needs.

/\/\ark

[Baconator]

The GoBe power panel Baconator mentioned generates .7 Amps. Yes, 7/10 of an Amp. It would take days and days and days to charge a standard size car battery, if it could be done at all. It is good for charging a cell phone, or a small flashlight, or a small laptop, but not much else. But it's better than no power at all. I don't want to diminish what Baconator is doing, but you must be realistic in your expectations.

Don't worry, I remain undiminished. Those are the applications I need it for. In a TEOTWAWKI situation, portability is more important to me than generating capacity, but that's just considering my own situation. Individual needs will vary. Portable wind power, like the Hymini, is the same trade-off. The more power you want, the less portability you'll have.

[mgriffith]

Alright. We have gone through all the methods of generating electricity with the exception of human powered and gasoline powered generators. Using a gas powered generator is a self-defeating exercise in TEOTWAWKI so I won't comment more on that. You could rig up any of the previously mentioned generators for you to turn using a bicycle or other apparatus, but you will get tired long before you can spend the hours necessary pumping to produce enough power to charge batteries of any size. So that is out unless you are determined to do so. There are lots of internet sites that will help you build a bicycle system to run a generator. Good luck.

Charging a bank of batteries is the best method for a small home or retreat generator as a means to store power, which in a hydro and some wind systems will produce it 24 hours a day. Why waste any power that is not immediately needed? In a solar system, you would mostly likely need power at night, so you must have a system to store electricity.

There are a number of web sites on batteries and battery charging. Here is one good one http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery.html and another http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

In most battery bank systems, you will use the stored power during times of need, or when you need more power for short periods of time than your generating system can provide. For example, say you need to run an electric drill or power saw to build something, or provide lighting for a couple hours in excess of what you normally need. A properly sized battery bank will provide that power, and then your generating system will recharge them. As long as you don't deplete the batteries too much, your charging system will be able to bring them back up to full charge in a reasonable amount of time.

So this charge/deplete/charge cycle continues in normal use, and you will need a battery bank that can handle this sort of thing. Standard automotive batteries are not suited to this duty cycle, but will work if they are not reduced to less than a 75% charge on a regular basis. They will eventually fail though. Deep cycle, or trolling motor marine batteries are designed for this duty cycle, and can be discharged to a much greater degree, more than 50% of full charge, without any damage. But eventually, all batteries will fail, it's just a matter of how much you use them, and how well they are take care of.

In general, the larger the battery bank, the better it is, but this can be very expensive, depending on the type of battery used. As I said, deep cycle trolling motor batteries are OK, but there are better ones available if you have the money. Here are some links:

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery_compare.html
http://www.trojanbattery.com/
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery.html

These are premium batteries and will last for years and years, and they are expensive too. Golf cart batteries, or "traction" batteries (using in electric fork lifts) are more reasonably priced and can be found at various places. No matter where you get your batteries, don't have them shipped or you will pay several times the cost of the battery for shipping.

When charging most 12 volt type batteries, the best charging voltage is 14.5 volts DC. This is what your car alternator produces. A fully charged 12 volt battery actually produces nearly 13 volts, and a battery that is 70% discharged will be closer to 12 volts. Here is a site to measure the state of charge: http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery_metering.html

You have to be careful not to overcharge the batteries if you want them to last. In a wind power and hydro system, the generator won't stop once the batteries reach full charge unless you do some fancy wiring with feedback voltage regulators to the generators, and they will produce voltages much higher than your battery is designed to handle. So, you need to have a special charge controller that will control the charging voltage, sense the charge state of the batteries and then divert the generated power to a dummy load, like a heating element or a bunch of lights, and then switch it back when the batteries need recharging. Here is a link about charge controllers specific to wind power, but could also be used for a hydro system too. http://www.tlgwindpower.com/ccontrollerinfo.htm

Solar charge controllers do not normally have a dump load connection, since when the battery reaches full charge, they open the circuit or short it to "turn off" the solar panels. This is the wrong thing to do for a wind or hydro system as it will allow the generator to run with no load and will quickly destroy a wind power system, and cause a hydro system to spin wildly. Here is a site for a solar charge controller. http://www.powerstream.com/pv-control.htm

The other side of the coin when using a battery bank is the voltage inverter that is used to convert the 12 volts DC power in the batteries to 120 volts of AC power to use with your appliances or whatever you intend to power with your system. These can be found just about anywhere and are available in all sorts of sizes. The basic wisdom here is to get the largest one you can afford, and then don't use it's full capacity except on rare occasions (remembering that you don't want to discharge your batteries too far). Also, if you intend to power electronic equipment with your inverter, then spend the extra money to get a true sine wave inverter. Many of them are "modified" sine wave inverters, and they can eventually damage sensitive electronics. If you only intend to power lights or chargers for small batteries, then it doesn't matter.

The end result of all this is a system you can use to generate power for your home or bug out retreat when the utility power fails, and maybe never comes back on. It won't be a lot of power unless you invest in a big expensive system. This all depends upon you and your needs. There are lots of people in this country and others that live a completely utility power free life on home generated power. But their needs are much less than the average American home. If you can do this, you can be free of utility bills for the rest of your life. If I lived in a suitable site with a good stream close by, I would shoot for that goal.

My goal is to be able to keep a bank of batteries charged so I can use them when needed, mostly to power some lights at night, a radio, etc, and to charge small rechargeable batteries to use in walkie-talkie type radios, flashlights, a laptop, etc. I intend to continue to grow the system as necessary, but my first goal is to completely power my workshop with a combo solar and wind system. Then I'll expand it to the garage, and then to parts of the house. I'll post some pictures here as I move along with the project.

Good luck to everyone on their power projects! I'll answer any questions you may have.

/\/\ark

[KF7EEC]

:glare: What do you mean? Like, old treadmills are sitting on the sidewalk for the garbage man?

No, like walk on the sidewalk.

[signseeker]

Question:

Can you hook up a generator from the stream (or whatever source) to the house and have it turn back or reduce your monthly power bill? How do you do that?

[mgriffith]

Question:

Can you hook up a generator from the stream (or whatever source) to the house and have it turn back or reduce your monthly power bill? How do you do that?

Yeah, you can do that, but the expense of building the system that can provide all your power during peak demand, and then sell the overage back to the power company will be a lot more than you can make selling it back. Many of these types of setups take years to recover the installation costs, and then start to give you a return on your investment, but not that much.

Seriously, this type of system might cost you tens of thousands of dollars, and take 10 years or more of selling back before you break even. And this assumes you have a stream of sufficient size and flow to generate that much power. To generate the power you are talking about would require lots of head, perhaps as much as 100 feet or more, and flow rates of several hundred gallons a second. Do you have a river like that around?

Look over the links I sent, especially that first on water wheels. From there you can calculate the approximate amount of power you can generate from a hydro setup (in kilowatts). Then figure out what your maximum kilowatt hour usage is, and you'll see if you can generate enough power. If your peak usage is 10 kilowatt hours (10,000 watts of power for one hour), then you would need a hydro system capable of generating at least that much power. Hydro systems run around $1,000 for each half a kilowatt (approximately), so you would be looking at $20,000 or so for a system with that generating capability. And the average home in the US uses around 50 kilowatt hours each day.

This is what I mean when you must be realistic. Unless you have the exactly the right conditions, and the money, you won't be able to supply 100% of your power. We as a people just use too much.

/\/\ark

[signseeker]

Okay, guess I wasn't clear enough. I'll copy and paste from DH...

You need to re-phrase the question. We're not looking to supply all the
power to the cabin, although we could easily if we could harness the
energy in the xxx River! We just want supplement what the power
company supplies. For example, if could supply 1KW is there a way of
getting that 'power system / meter' at our cabin to not pull as much
power from the grid and thus reduce our monthly bill?

[mgriffith]

Okay, guess I wasn't clear enough. I'll copy and paste from DH...

You need to re-phrase the question. We're not looking to supply all the
power to the cabin, although we could easily if we could harness the
energy in the xxx River! We just want supplement what the power
company supplies. For example, if could supply 1KW is there a way of
getting that 'power system / meter' at our cabin to not pull as much
power from the grid and thus reduce our monthly bill?


Yes, you need a "grid tie inverter" and a program with your utility company to do this. Here's a quick Wikipedia link to explain this a little. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_tie_inverter

Basically, your utility company is the one to contact about this. They will have certain requirements you would have to meet to do this, and probably a list of approved grid tie inverters. Caution: these things are not cheap.

/\/\ark